-- Table structure for table `wp_registration_log`
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--
-- Dumping data for table `wp_registration_log`
--


--
-- Table structure for table `wp_signups`
--

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--
-- Dumping data for table `wp_signups`
--


--
-- Table structure for table `wp_site`
--

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--
-- Dumping data for table `wp_site`
--

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--
-- Table structure for table `wp_sitemeta`
--

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--
-- Dumping data for table `wp_sitemeta`
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--
-- Table structure for table `wp_term_relationships`
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--
-- Dumping data for table `wp_term_relationships`
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--
-- Table structure for table `wp_term_taxonomy`
--

CREATE TABLE `wp_term_taxonomy` (
  `term_taxonomy_id` bigint(20) unsigned NOT NULL auto_increment,
  `term_id` bigint(20) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  `taxonomy` varchar(32) NOT NULL default '',
  `description` longtext NOT NULL,
  `parent` bigint(20) unsigned NOT NULL default '0',
  `count` bigint(20) NOT NULL default '0',
  PRIMARY KEY  (`term_taxonomy_id`),
  UNIQUE KEY `term_id_taxonomy` (`term_id`,`taxonomy`),
  KEY `taxonomy` (`taxonomy`)
) ENGINE=MyISAM AUTO_INCREMENT=1171 DEFAULT CHARSET=utf8;

--
-- Dumping data for table `wp_term_taxonomy`
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-- Table structure for table `wp_tml_emails`
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-- Table structure for table `wp_tml_log`
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--
-- Dumping data for table `wp_tml_log`
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INSERT INTO `wp_tml_log` VALUES (1,'jb@thriven.org',555,1321926751,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Name\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is just a sample comment that I\'ve written'),(2,'jb@thriven.org',555,1321928646,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Name\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is just a sample comment that I\'ve written'),(3,'janfischer66@gmail.com',557,1321949893,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jan Fischer\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nvery nice.'),(4,'shoutlaughlove@gmail.com',558,1321994005,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi suzannah {so much shouting, so much laughter}\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nhow do we find ways to lift up women in the church?   you can start by dismantling 80% of the assumptions espoused in this piece.  \"i don\'t really want women to be equal in the traditional sense...\"   subjugation isn\'t silly; it\'s oppressive.  of course you are missing out on half a world of wisdom if you fail to listen to women\'s voices. this argument is tiresome.'),(5,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',559,1321997103,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nRealize that those who chose the books in the Bible were men because of historical culture.  Truly recognize women as part of the human race, not \"less than\".  Finally, in saying, \"We find a way to lift women up\", you imply \"men\".  Women need to lift women up, whether men do or not.'),(6,'jb@thriven.org',560,1321999573,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nSuzannah, for you it may be tiresome, but I can\'t ignore that men need to have these conversations.  And what would you dismantle?'),(7,'jb@thriven.org',561,1321999684,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJoy, I simply state the obvious, where men make up the predominate majority of church leadership (and almost exclusively within the Evangelical culture).'),(8,'christy.lambertson@gmail.com',562,1322014435,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Christy\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAs far as dismantling goes, I would start with this:\r\n\r\n\"I think when women try to be men, they miss the beauty of what it means to be feminine. The women I know who try to compete with men inevitably miss their own humanity.\" \r\n\r\ni don\'t personally know any women who want to be men - unless you are referring to transgender people.  This argument is deeply annoying - where are these women who are trying to be men, exactly?  I\'ve never met one - and I know women who are pastors, engineers, and construction workers and in other male-dominated professions.  They all seem to still be fully human to me (although they may or may not fulfill your personal definition of acceptable gender roles.)  \r\n\r\nWomen want the same opportunities as men - we do not want to BE men.  (For confirmation of this fact, feel free to read almost every single bit of feminist theory and theology written in the last twenty years.)  If your question is \"How do we lift women up in the church while simultaneously barring them from positions of power?\", the answer is \"You can\'t.\"  Until you are ready to let go of the notion of Deity-approved gender discrimination, \"working together in harmony and congruence\" ain\'t going to happen.'),(9,'jb@thriven.org',563,1322019626,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nChristy, I\'m glad you\'ve never met women who try to be men.  This was very common for me in the business world, and if that was not your experience, great.  But it was mine.  If it\'s annoying for you, then fine.  I can\'t control your annoyance.  And is this experience exclusive to women? Obviously not.  It\'s unfair to assume that I was drawing the same conclusion that all women want to be men.\nIn drawing that conclusion you missed my point.  The reflection of God exists in both genders, together, in Adam coming back as one.  My point is that we need to see both elements of the God image in our community, or we miss God\'s true reflection.\nAnd this is what I don\'t get about your pushback.  I agree that women want the same opportunities as men.  I never said differently.  But men don\'t allow that.  This was the point of the post.  And yet you pushed back on someone who was trying to state the very same thing that you desire. \nAs I said to Joy.  This is history.  Does that make it right? No.  But talking about it is the beginning of change.'),(10,'shoutlaughlove@gmail.com',564,1322020662,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi suzannah {so much shouting, so much laughter}\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\njonathan, men can have all the deep conversations they like, but if you can even agree that women are equal to men, will that conversation really go anywhere?\r\n\r\nyou infer quite a bit about a gendered nature of God\'s \"mission of restoration.\"  perhaps identifying the origin of some of those assumptions is a better place to start a conversation, because many believers love Jesus and the Word and don\'t read it that way.\r\n\r\nthere is certainly common ground among christians who believe differently about gender roles, but using \"maybe\" language to suggest that women have valuable contributions to make is more than a little insulting.  men don\'t need to lift up women, but if you desire restoration and you\'re stepping on us, you\'re gonna need to move your feet.'),(11,'jb@thriven.org',565,1322028116,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nSuzannah, I use \"his\" as a historical reference simply because Scripture indicates it as such.  Yet, it seems like you want to pick a fight for my raising the question among men.  I do not wish to return that favor because I recognize I do not sit in your shoes.  I do not know the oppression you have felt.  That is part of the problem.  Yet to condemn me for raising the question seems a little unfair.\r\n\r\nAnd to my own credit I wrote a book that included a very deep reference the the original image of God as inclusive to men AND women.   I never stated men and women weren\'t equal.  Our equality resides in our dignity, not our gender.  My point was and is that our reflection of the image of God always must include both.'),(12,'shoutlaughlove@gmail.com',566,1322059464,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi suzannah {so much shouting, so much laughter}\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\ni don\'t want to fight and apologize if my comments seemed combative.  your point about raising this issue among men helps me understand part of this disconnect. is this post not intended to be read by women? it reads as exclusionary, and that is part of what commenters are pushing back against.\r\n\r\nyou said that you \"don\'t really want women to be equal in the traditional sense,\" and i read that as your not thinking/wanting women to be equal to men, because to most people, there is no such thing as traditional and non-traditional equality--either women are equal or they aren\'t.\r\n\r\ni won\'t clutter your comment section anymore and appreciate your affirming our shared worth from being made in the image of God.'),(13,'jb@thriven.org',567,1322064375,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nSuzannah, this post is meant to be read and commented by anyone.  It\'s a human conversation that involves both men and women, but also involves history.  I wish gender issues were not a problem.  I sympathize with how you feel, but please don\'t exclude yourself.  If you do, you miss the opportunity to influence men with your voice.   I created this space (Provoketive) to ask those hard questions and dialogue about them.  Things still need to change. But change begins with acknowledging where we are at now.  \n\nMy comment about not being equal has to do with our differences in gender, not dignity.  If we can sit at the table as equals in value, what then does our gender mean to the conversation.  How are we uniquely designed as men and women to work together.  And I\'m not talking about a \"complimentarian\" approach where men are left with the final decision.  I\'m talking about listening deeply to each other\'s voices.\n\nYes I am speaking to men in general, specifically because men are in traditional seats of power.  But I also don\'t think men will solve the problem.  We can contribute to the solution by opening spaces for women.  Not because it\'s a duty, but because it\'s the fullest reflection of God in our midst.'),(14,'maguyton@gmail.com',568,1322064850,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Morgan Guyton\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIn servant leadership, there is no hierarchy, because servanthood implies not only doing something for somebody else but submitting to them at the same time. If Christian leaders are truly douloi christou (slaves of Christ) and diakonoi pantou (servants of all), then they should be the most submissive members of the congregation whose goal is that everyone else should be empowered and exalted to follow God\'s call. Thus, in a truly Christian household or church, there would not be any way of knowing who\'s \"in charge\" because everyone would be trying to exalt everybody else.\r\n\r\nMy wife is also a minister. When she and I got married, we preached a sermon together on the passage about marriage emulating the bride/bridegroom relationship of Christ and the church that patriarchal Christians love so much. I washed her feet while she talked and she washed my feet while I talked. We talked about why it was a sin for Simon Peter to refuse to let Jesus submit to him by washing his feet and how it\'s in our best mutual spiritual interests as a couple to take turns being Jesus and the church, balancing the amount that we submit to each other, because the one who is being submitted to is really the weaker party. \r\n\r\nThe original historical need for a patriarchal society is understandable. One gender gets impregnated if they\'re raped, and there were gangs of horny men wandering the streets of ancient cities (Genesis 19, Judges 19). Thus for an ancient city-state to have any kind of social order when people from different extended families were living side by side, every woman needed to be sheltered behind a father or husband. Patriarchy had a purpose, but our more developed social order has made it obsolete.\r\n\r\nI suspect that the reason some conservative evangelical women accept a patriarchal society is because it allows them to be servant leaders while the men \"get up front\" and puff up their egos. Men are the ones who are in the greatest spiritual peril in a patriarchal society. We should insist that women be given equal authority to put a check on the damnation of our own spiritual pride.'),(15,'maguyton@gmail.com',569,1322065233,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Morgan Guyton\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIn a household or church ordered by servant leadership, it would be difficult to tell who was in charge. To be a true servant is not just to do something for other people but to submit to them. Servant leaders understand that leadership IS submission. Men appear to be \"in charge\" and \"up front\" in conservative evangelical churches because their women are exercising true servant leadership. Men should insist upon women being treated equally to avoid the spiritual peril of our own pride. I am only able to be a pastor because my wife is my chaplain.'),(16,'maguyton@gmail.com',570,1322098770,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Morgan Guyton\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks for sharing this powerful witness. I was wounded by the church too. God told me that the worship service I lead is supposed to be a place for healing wounds.  Nothing like Tahrir Square. Just depression, addiction, grief. Suburban wounds. If you live in the DC area, come visit sometime. Saturdays 5:30 pm out in Burke, VA at Burke UMC.'),(17,'jb@thriven.org',571,1322102341,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\ntest'),(18,'marilyngardner5@gmail.com',572,1322108649,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marilyn Gardner\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks for sharing. It is encouraging to hear of your desire and vision for the church. And you know - in a way, the wounds from Tahrir are (dare I say it) easier. I think the \"suburban\" wounds of depression, grief and addiction are so deep that it takes going to the bottom of the soul for healing. Walking with people down that road and seeing them through to the other side is surely living out Christ\'s love. Would love to come to your church! We used to be in the DC area a fair amount when our kids were at American University.'),(19,'marilyngardner5@gmail.com',573,1322109006,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marilyn Gardner\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you so much for sharing. I think (dare I say it) that the wounds at Tahrir are probably less difficult than those you mention - the \'suburban\' wounds of depression, addiction and grief are so deep and take us so to the depths of our souls that walking people through these valleys and into the other side is surely being the light of Christ to them. Your church sounds like it is doing this well. Would love to drop by - used to be in the DC area a lot when our kids were at American University, though not so much anymore.'),(20,'maguyton@gmail.com',574,1322170974,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Morgan Guyton\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThere\'s nothing Biblical about individualism. The degree to which we are individualist is the degree to which our assumptions about the universe are secular. If we really believe that God\'s in charge and is our creator, then everything we have been given was given to us for a purpose. To really believe in God is to believe in divine providence rather than individual responsibility.\r\n\r\nHere are several pieces I wrote related to this topic:\r\n\r\n\"Individualism is an atheist lie\"\r\nhttp://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/individualism-is-an-atheist-lie/\r\n\r\n\"Ayn Rand vs. Jesus\"\r\nhttp://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/ayn-rand-vs-jesus/\r\n\r\n\"Tony Perkins &amp; the Anti-Gospel of Individual Responsibility\"\r\nhttp://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2011/06/12/tony-perkins-the-anti-gospel-of-individual-responsibility/'),(21,'williamawalkeriii@gmail.com',575,1322171880,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bill Walker\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks Morgan.  Right on... I think if we say that individual responsibilty is the anti-gospel though, that might be too polemical - or at least it will seem so to many.  Nonetheless I think this could be true in light of how some understand the idea.  And what an appropriate topic for thanksgiving on a day when we are tempted to just univocally declare that God has blessed us, rather than appreciate the extent to which these \"blessings\"  might not be personal/individual at all, but historical and socio-economic in nature.  This is where responsibility comes in, as corporate.  I will definitely check out these links.'),(22,'williamawalkeriii@gmail.com',576,1322172770,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bill Walker\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks Morgan.  I think you are right, although the simple assertion that individual responsibility is an antigospel might be too polemical - or at least it\'s likely to be understood that way by some.  At the same time, this is a very appropriate message for thanksgiving in light of our tendency to just univocally acknowledge that God has blessed us, personally and individually, rather than recognizing the extent to which many of these \"blessings\" are supported by unjust historical and socio-economic conditions.  I will definitely check out these links!'),(23,'williamawalkeriii@gmail.com',577,1322186722,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bill Walker\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks Morgan.  I think you are right, although the simple assertion that individual responsibility is an anti-gospel might be too polemical - or at least it\'s likely to be understood that way by some.  At the same time, this is a very appropriate message for thanksgiving in light of our tendency to just univocally acknowledge that God has blessed us, personally and individually, rather than recognizing the extent to which many of these \"blessings\" are supported by unjust historical and socio-economic conditions.  I will definitely check out these links!'),(24,'martyreimer78@yahoo.com',580,1322327333,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marty Reimer\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nwhere\'s the \"like\" button, marilyn?  that\'s all i need for this....\r\n\r\nlove you to the moon and back!\r\n\r\nxox\r\nm'),(25,'bhatti.patricia7@gmail.com',581,1322340121,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Patta\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWell spoken. When we lean on God\'s truth, it is strengthening to body and soul. Thanks for penning these words for us.'),(26,'alice_longaker@msn.com',583,1322340121,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi alice\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nCarefully and thoughtfully written. I really like this:  \"It is an absolute necessity for women to speak up in their marriages, not only to enrich their relationships but also to benefit their church communities. \"'),(27,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',586,1322343656,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks for reading and commenting on them, Patta! I appreciate your feedback. '),(28,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',585,1322343657,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAlice, I appreciate your reading and responding. '),(29,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',587,1322343657,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAnna,\n\nI believe these distortions are the work of the Enemy (Satan) who understands that if men and women operated effectively and harmoniously, churches and marriages would flourish. What better way is there to oppress people than to convince them that they aren\'t who they were created to be? We can take all this back in the power of Jesus. This is my dream: to bring Heaven to earth. \n\nThank you for your heartfelt response.'),(30,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',588,1322343657,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGod\'s truth is good for strengthening. Thank you for the feedback, Patta.'),(31,'annabsn@hotmail.com',584,1322343657,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Anna\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n\"When women take their abilities home, families are restored and strengthened. Husbands no longer seize under the pressure of unreasonable expectations, and wives are not bound under an unjust restraining order\"- I see truth in this statement. Why do you think such distortions of gender roles in marriage and the church exist, even among those whom wish to live outside such distortion?'),(32,'alice_longaker@msn.com',582,1322359439,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi alice\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nCareful and thoughtful insights. Thanks, Renee!'),(33,'shallem@hotmail.com',589,1322417539,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Mrs. Bosman\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n\"as they were meant to be.\" Across the board, don\'t you think God is calling us all into our true identities? It is amazing to watch friends from all over the world being led on this journey. Great article, Renee. Perhaps also it is interesting to also consider how women \"battle\" the silencing under great opposition, oppression from below...your next article?'),(34,'aabbe@hotmail.com',590,1322428285,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Andrea\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nPowerful and freeing!  Amen.  Thank you for adding a very balanced and needed perspective on this topic.  There are certain articles that all churches need to read... :)'),(35,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',591,1322432729,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHa!  I love it.  I may have to break my \"I don\'t forward stuff\" rule for this one.'),(36,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',592,1322433802,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nComing late to this conversation...\r\n\r\nI, too, have to take issue with the idea of women who \"want to be men\" (again, like Christy above, unless referring to transgender people).  What does that even mean?  That women want to behave in ways that men usually do?  That they have personality traits or behaviors that we typically associate culturally with men?  Because this seems to be beyond the idea that women can function in any type of work.\r\n\r\nI suspect that people are just not comfortable with the idea that characteristics are without gender--that a woman could be ambitious, driven, and powerful or that a man could be gentle and nurturing.  We imagine that even when a married couple consider each other to be equals in all things, someone has to be \"the man\" in the relationship and someone has to be \"the woman.\"\r\n\r\nMy two children both exhibit traits that are gender non-conforming.  Should I tell them that they are limited in what they do because someone might become confused that they \"want to be\" the opposite gender?\r\n\r\nUntil personality types stop having gender, this type of conversation is still relevant.'),(37,'sophblanc@hotmail.com',593,1322437645,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Little Gumnut\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nExcellent article Marilyn, I thought Morgan Guyton\'s comment about God\'s purpose for worship very profound as well. I\'ve struggled with deep hurts in the church as well and have seen people for whom its all been too much and who have left.  Thinking of you and the piece of your heart in Egypt, hoping that there is good news and peace surrounding you.'),(38,'shoutlaughlove@gmail.com',594,1322446230,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi suzannah {so much shouting, so much laughter}\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\namy, yes! i believe that conversations about gender are important, too.  it\'s the prescriptive, culture-based arguments about how wo/men *should* be that are problematic, needlessly limiting, and ultimately deceptive.\r\n\r\ni\'m raising a boy and a girl and believe that men and women are different in ways i might not have believed before i had kids--but i am not willing either to make the leap from \"boys tend to be rough, physical\" etc to \"men are/*should be* like this and women who act that way are trying to be men.\"'),(39,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',596,1322450792,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAndrea, I\'m thankful you found this freeing--that was my intention for women. Feel free to share this with anyone you feel would benefit. :)'),(40,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',597,1322450972,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMrs. Bosman, I think you and Anna have just inspired my next article! Thank you. Yes, I believe--and incidentally don\'t find it surprising (as with most moves of the Holy Spirit)--that God is doing this with so many people. It\'s high time His people start acting like His people.'),(41,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',598,1322451663,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMrs. Bosman, \r\n\r\nYou and Anna have inspired my next article. Thank you. I do believe God is doing a universal work by calling His people back to Himself and into their true identities. A true move of the Holy Spirit typically does spread, yes? I encourage you to keep seeking Him on who He wants you to be completely in Him. Be well and much love.'),(42,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',599,1322451731,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAndrea, I\'m thankful you found this freeing. That was my purpose for women in writing it. Please share this with anyone you feel would benefit!'),(43,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',600,1322454694,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJonathan, \r\n\r\nI hadn\'t seen this article when I posted \"Gender Roles as God Intended,\" but I think my piece is a fitting response to the question you pose at the end of this thoughtful missive. I\'m grateful as a woman to see men speaking on our behalf on this very precious and pertinent issue. \r\n\r\nWarmly, \r\nRenee'),(44,'kerryvent@aol.com',601,1322457096,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Kerry\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGreat piece, Renee!  I feel like I see a lot of people fighting gender roles.  Don\'t quite understand why.'),(45,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',602,1322457396,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks, Kerry! I think people fight gender roles because for thousands of years those in power dictated gender/racial/younameit divisions to remain in power. This is especially true in the church. Why give people the tools to overcome when doing so would risk said power-heads to resign power? It\'s evil at its most deceptive. If you read the book of Esther in the Old Testament, the King dismissed his first wife Vashti (before Esther) because his cabinet reasoned that if other women discovered that Vashti didn\'t get into trouble after not listening to her husband, then ALL women in the land would reason the same, and a giant (!) rebellion (!) would ensue. The trend stuck, and here we are, thousands of years later, with not much change.'),(46,'patrick.sele@highspeed.li',595,1322460401,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Patrick\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAnother concept that may have to be taken into account with respect to the Problem of Evil is God’s perfect justice. In the following I’m presenting a theodicy, called “Theodicy from divine justice”, based on this concept:\r\n\r\n-	God’s perfect justice prevents Him from relieving people with unforgiven sins from their sufferings (see Isaiah 59,1-2).\r\n-	Unlike God Christians are not perfectly just. Therefore, unlike God, they are in a position to help people with unforgiven sins. By doing this they may make those among them who haven’t yet accepted God’s salvation receptive of it (Matthew 5,16, 1 Peter 2,11-12, and 3,1-2), which in turn frees these persons from suffering in the afterlife. \r\n-	The greater God’s beneficial power due to His love, the greater God’s destructive power due to His justice (see Matthew 13,27-29). Striving to prevent as much suffering as possible God can only interfere to such a degree that the beneficial effect of the interference is not neutralized by the destructive effect of it.\r\n-	Someone who dies before he or she reaches the age of accountability, i.e. before he or she can distinguish between good and evil (see Genesis 2,16-17, Deuteronomy 1,39, and Isaiah 7,16) faces no punishment in the afterlife, as he or she would not have been able to commit sins. So, God may not be inclined to prevent such a person’s death.\r\n-	A person’s suffering in this life may have a redeeming effect (Luke 16,25) and consequently contribute to a decrease of the respective person’s suffering in the afterlife; the amount of suffering in this life is so to speak subtracted from the amount of suffering in the afterlife. So, God may not be inclined to relieve this person’s suffering.\r\n-	A person’s suffering in this life may make the person receptive of God’s salvation (Luke 15,11-21), which in turn frees this person from suffering in the afterlife.\r\n-	There are degrees of punishment in the afterlife depending on one’s moral behaviour (Matthew 16,27, 2 Corinthians 5,10), one’s knowledge of God’s will (Matthew 11,20-24, Luke 12,47-48), and, as mentioned before, one’s amount of suffering in this life (Luke 16,25).\r\n-	Those people who suffer more in this life than they deserve due to their way of life are compensated for it by receiving rewards in Heaven.'),(47,'kisakonrad@yahoo.com',603,1322466162,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Kisa\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is very well-written and insightful, Renee.  I think it strikes me apart from its commentary on Christianity.  ALL marriages should operate with this kind of mutual respect, sharing &amp; listening and benefitting from each others\' strengths.  Thank you for the reminder :)'),(48,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',604,1322466282,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nKisa, you are correct: all marriages should operate this way. You\'re welcome and thank you.'),(49,'jb@thriven.org',605,1322491455,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nSuzannah, and I wouldn\'t make that argument either.'),(50,'jb@thriven.org',606,1322491517,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThen what do you see as the point of gender Amy?'),(51,'melhhanson@yahoo.com',607,1322493776,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Melody Harrison Hanson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBeautifully spoken!  We need to tell the stories in scripture of strong women, which really stood out to me here.  They are stories I do not hear in church.   Thank you for writing this piece.'),(52,'marilyngardner5@gmail.com',608,1322498264,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marilyn Gardner\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you Sophie! And the piece of my heart in Egypt is doing well! I too have known people who have left  the church. I often wonder why I didn\'t- although I definitely sat there, but not really there, for years. But somehow I knew that I had to forgive the church for losing the road map of grace and comfort. And I also realized that I chose, because of  woundedness, to not engage - so I had to repent of that. If you don\'t engage, people just see the surface and don\'t know what is under, hurting and wounded. It\'s still a process for me and some days are better than others, but I have learned more about giving grace in the process. Something I have desperately needed. I\'m great at accusing people of not having grace, giving grace to those same people? That\'s a bit more difficult!'),(53,'marilyngardner5@gmail.com',609,1322498324,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marilyn Gardner\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAnd you have been the church to me many times Marty!'),(54,'karma.arslanian@gmail.com',610,1322505758,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Karma Arslanian\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWhile I am more than happy to help out with childcare, food and decorating these are not my primary gifts. On some level I always knew that I had more to offer but I doubted the \"rightness\" of my giftings after too long in a church that told me I was way out of the bounds of what a woman should be. I am free from this now but it is heartbraking to see it happening to women all around me. Thanks for speaking out.'),(55,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',611,1322505938,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMelody: I\'m thankful the stories here resonated, as they ought to. They\'re powerful testimonies of what God considers to be true womanhood (why else would they have made it into the holiest of books?). My question to you would be why you think churches don\'t highlight these stories more. It\'s a worthy conversation.'),(56,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',612,1322506094,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nKarma, I truly believe suppressing women\'s voices is a form of demonic stifling that prevents families and churches from flourishing. You write: \"I am free from this now.\" I am so glad for this. You have overcome, and I encourage you to speak up as your convictions dictate. Much love to you.'),(57,'s_lopatin@yahoo.com',613,1322511197,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Shari Lopatin\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n\"It will be like entering into a world where people are as they were meant to be.\" --GREAT finishing touch, and I think this is your strongest point, by far. This is the epitome of equality, whether we\'re speaking racially, ethnically, or gender. Great essay, Renee, and congrats on your publication!'),(58,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',614,1322511881,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYup, that\'s exactly what I mean.\r\n\r\nI have a son who takes ballet lessons.  He does it because he wants to, not because I\'m trying to \"prove\" anything by forcing him.  He\'s good at it.  But I certainly wish I had a dime for every time someone said something which amounted to, \"You\'re going to turn him into a sissy/girl/queer.\"  It doesn\'t just bother me because he isn\'t any of those things (at least, not that I know of--he\'s only 8).  It bothers me because so what if he is?  So what if he grows up to be a man with more \"feminine\" sensibilities?  And what difference would it (or should it) make to anyone else if he\'s gay or transgender?  And why does ballet or being gentle, sweet, or nurturing automatically make him queer?'),(59,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',615,1322512060,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n\"Then what do you see as the point of gender Amy?\"\r\n\r\nThat, right there, is the question we should be asking, rather than what it means to be male or female.\r\n\r\nAnd really, I don\'t have a good answer.  The best I can do for the moment is to suggest that maybe the purpose has been different in different times and places.  As far as I can tell, American masculinity and femininity are pretty different from the same in, say, ancient Japan.  Perhaps a good survey of what gender and gender roles have meant through history and geography might give us some clues.'),(60,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',616,1322515687,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n\"The epitome of equality.\" Shari, I love this. Thank you for your encouragement.'),(61,'tamaraoutloud@gmail.com',617,1322526826,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Tamara Lunardo\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nRenee, I so appreciate the varied biblical examples of women\'s intercession. I think that too often we fixate on one small passage in the Bible to reinforce our own preferences; a broader and more thoughtful perspective like this is so important in hearing what God really has to say about his marvelous plans for us. Thank you.'),(62,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',618,1322531242,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nTamara, I too believe that providing a broad range of examples allows for people to recognize the importance of the issue. When we base a theology on one verse/idea, that\'s when distortions arise (see: Paul\'s warning women in ONE verse not to speak up in church.). I appreciate your vote of confidence and your insightful use of the word \"intercession.\" How fitting.'),(63,'Jesusruserious@hotmail.com',619,1322591445,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi A.j\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBronwen,\r\n   Thank you for sharing your experience and reflection. I also have sensed and been kinda grossed out by the seeming arrogance of the \'Our God\' thing. I\'m curious what conclusions or new questions arise for you when you contemplate the seemingly exclusive declarations of both Jesus and His disciples found in the N.T.? I\'m thinking  \'Only way to the Father\', \'Name above every name\',\'Only name by which one can be saved\' etc.\r\n I look forward to your response! \r\n\r\nSincerely, \r\n   A.j'),(64,'jmcrouch@gmail.com',620,1322591985,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Crouch\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you Bronwen for this insight. I tell people that the only reason Buddha was not a Christian was because he was born before Christ. To be a good Buddhist one must be a good Christian. To be a good Christian one must be a good Buddhist. \r\n\r\nIt seems that Jesus taught unconditional Love and The Buddha taught enlightenment. The emphasis is different depending on ones intention.'),(65,'steph.duncan.ssd@gmail.com',621,1322594768,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Stephanie S. Smith\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI\'m so glad to see this dialogue taking place more and more about feeding both the body and the spirit. There are so many metaphors about food in Scripture yet we largely ignore any relationship between our food and our faith. You mentioned \"sensual delights\"--definitely not something we talk about in church! Yet Eden means \"delight, pleasure.\" This is the God we serve. And when we pay attention to our senses we experience Him more fully.'),(66,'outofaustin@googlemail.com',627,1322606016,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Lee Fischer\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\ngood article.  thanks.'),(67,'jesusruserious@hotmail.com',628,1322607833,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi A.j\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBronwen, \r\n Thank you for offering your interpretation of John14:6. I\'m curious if you\'ve contemplated some of the other verses I referenced? Some would say the Uniqueness and Divinity of Jesus is paramount, this being a common thread through the N.T. as God reconciling the world to Himself(salvation) through Jesus. \r\n\r\nIf this has been some of the roads you\'ve been down in your journey I wonder if you\'d be so kind to share your working response to such claims?\r\n\r\n-a.j'),(68,'MistyDC29@gmail.com',629,1322608314,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi MistyDC29\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI fully agree that our intentions need to be as clay.  We certainly have to be flexible and not try to \"strong arm\" our own will into God\'s plan.  But I think that we need to have those intentions, otherwise, we may find ourselves wandering and just marking time.  We need to make a conscious decision every day to seek God and His will as opposed to just following our own path.  We are constantly seeking just a little more light to illuminate the next destination.  Every time we pray about a decision, we are asking for a little more light.  I think that all of this is part of living intentionally.  Even submission takes intention.'),(69,'scottinthenw@gmail.com',630,1322634287,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Scott\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI hear you on this one Miss Henry!\r\n\r\nMy wife and I left the church for various reasons.  However, for me, one of my \"Ah ha.\" moments came at a time during the Da Vinci Code success.  The leader of our congregation sermonized for over and hour and a half at the dangers of the Da Vinci Code.  That\'s when it dawned on me.  I was forced to ask myself, \"why is nearly every sermon an apologetical teaching in defense of Jesus the Messiah and my God is bigger than your god?\" \r\n\r\nEither Jesus is the Messiah or not. Either God is God or not.  But to constantly drum that message into the heads of Christians smacks of brain washing.  And it seemed to me that perhaps Christians are not as confident in their beliefs as they think. \r\n\r\nLet\'s be honest.  It has been over 2000 years since Jesus\' death.  Perhaps he\'s not Messiah?  Then what?  Is God still bigger than others? Yes.  Is he not also just as merciful?  Of course. To me the greater teaching should be about kindness, mercy, peace, hospitality, etc.  Or better yet.  I like how it is quoted in the movie Bill And Ted\'s Excellent Adventure: \"Be excellent to each other and...... PARTY ON DUDES!\"\r\n\r\nExcellent observation.'),(70,'outofaustin@googlemail.com',631,1322646734,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Lee Fischer\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMelody, \r\n\r\nDon\'t, please don\'t, let anyone take your \'feminist radar\' away!\r\nI am so thankful that this conversation is possible here at Provoketive... I wish I could say the same for the Emergents here in Germany, but we still have a long way to go (just went through their website the other day, and there is one podcast from one woman...every book, podcast, article, link are to, about, from and for men!).  I \'Amen\' you on so many things in this post, sister, and rather than get on a soap box here, I think I should let it inspire a post of my own.  I\'m hoping to come at this theme from the more general question of \'authority\' in my dissertation... a subject I\'ve been wanting to tackle for a number of years now.  I\'ll have to read Jim Henderson\'s book. \r\nthank you.  lee'),(71,'marilyngardner5@gmail.com',632,1322666904,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marilyn Gardner\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks for the post. This is a good discussion and you bring up some excellent points.  I totally agree in terms of the mystery of who God is, how big God is, and how much I don\'t understand. Derrick C. Brown - one of my favorite poets has done an amazing video called A Finger, Two Dots, Then me and I feel like it is a profound look at how big God is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwQJHx615eE&amp;feature=share It\'s about 8 minutes long but so worthwhile! Way better than church :)\r\nHere is where I struggle - if two views about God and the way to God contradict each other, which one is correct? It defies logic that all can be correct. I grew up in the Muslim world, lived there as an adult and still travel there often - if all ways lead to God then surely the terrorists from 9/11 are in Heaven. They were zealous for God and carried out their actions in the name of God. If we go by the dogma that all ways lead to God - then surely this group cannot be excluded. I would also add that if Jesus called himself God, and he\'s not - then he is not a good guy.  He is someone who purposely deluded people and laughed in the process. He is not the way of compassion, but rather the way to a deadly delusion.  Could it be that there is one way to God, but many ways to Jesus? Sorry this is so long but I do a lot of thinking about this subject and your post is great food for my thinking!'),(72,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',634,1322669208,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is well-written and thoughtful.  Some great insights!\r\n\r\nI\'m not sure about this, though:\r\n\r\n\"God created marriage as an earthly reflection of a spiritual dynamic.\"\r\n\r\nActually, God created marriage because it wasn\'t \"good for the man to be alone.\"  We may see spiritual truths reflected in the marriage relationship, but I think saying that\'s the purpose is stretching literalism a little too far.\r\n\r\n\"...Paul’s culture, in which women notoriously overused the gift of speech...\"\r\n\r\nI don\'t know why people assume this to be true.  It seems from Scripture that *both* men and women were notorious for misusing their mouths, in much the same ways.  Men aren\'t paragons of gossip-free virtue, and they weren\'t back then, either.  Unless there are historical texts (of the non-misogynist variety) to back up that claim, it\'s faulty.\r\n\r\nOn the other hand, I loved your use of Pilate\'s wife.  She\'s definitely someone I wish we knew more about.'),(73,'ianwrisley@gmail.com',633,1322671289,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ian Wrisley\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHi.  I appreciate your interest in the diversity of religious expression and the usefulness of terms and persons from one to understand another.  I\'m wondering if, contrary to your position, all religions might not be wrong.  I wonder if John Lennon was more like Jesus than we give him credit for.  Religion seems to be opposed to God, and only occasionally becomes a door into God\'s world.\r\nI also wonder if it\'s not a western syncronizing tendency to lump religions into one ball, using categories from one to fit elements of others into.  Nirvana is not heaven is not eternal life.  Buddha is not a redeemer in part because Buddhists do not perceive a need for salvation like Christians do.  The relative truth of each approach is debatable, but it\'s hard to make them work together.\r\nAll that said, I do appreciate your caution against tribalism and dominionism.  Thanks.'),(74,'lynch.gerard@yahoo.com',635,1322675248,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi tom lynch\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you for replying. Of course I agree that we need to make a conscious decision every day to seek God and His will, yei I would add this is a continual practice throughout each day, a way of becoming a \"living sacrifice.\" For me, this is the unceasing prayer. \r\nRe-reading my post I can see where I appear to suggest a sort of bumping along, as if merely hoping to bump into Holy Spirit. \r\nFor me, it is this continual surrender to Spirit and grace that gives what is needed ineach moment without, what seems to me, the egoic control of \"intentional living.\"'),(75,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',636,1322677890,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nScott, thank you for sharing some of your journey.'),(76,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',637,1322678425,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMarilyn,\r\nThank you for taking time to leave this comment (and that link! wow!). The perspective I hold is that many ways/paths CAN lead to God. It doesn\'t mean they do! It is the practicing, the living, the embodying of everything good in a faith path that leads one to salvation (imho). Oh, I very much puzzle over the same questions you pose. To me what is more important than \'who\' is right, the exact nature of Jesus\' divinity, etc. is how we hold it. I think when we hold our faith (whatever it is) in a way that we think we are better than others, it is a dangerous path, one that separates rather than unites. I\'d love to hear more of your thoughts.'),(77,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',638,1322678731,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIan,\r\nThank you for this point! Samir Selmanovich\'s work (It\'s all about God) first introduced me to this notion that \'we are all wrong\' and I love it! I think it is an important reminder, one that can unite people of all religions (atheists included). Have you read any Peter Rollins? He also has a lot of cool ideas about the very nature of God is to be concealed (not \'revealed\')...and it is through His mystery that we learn so much (very poor paraphrase here! Peter\'s words are much more brilliant!). \r\n\r\nI hear your caution on not equating religions. And on my journey I have found great richness in trying to elevate my mind above the specific word choice of a faith path, and TRY to get in touch with the heart/the intent/ the message. It is somewhat easy (for many) to divide religions, but for me, I find such deep peace in recognizing (and even accepting) the unity present.\r\n\r\nI very much benefited from a concept I learned at a Buddhist temple, that ALL our words will fall short of the divine and that we must not get caught up (attached) to the words themselves.'),(78,'jb@thriven.org',640,1322680611,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nOh how we love our words, don\'t we?'),(79,'jb@thriven.org',639,1322680611,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nOne of the deep connectors between Buddhism and Christianity (or the work of Jesus) is the alleviation of suffering.'),(80,'jthhou@gmail.com',641,1322682471,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jim Herrington\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHi Bill. Your cousin Carolyn put me onto this article.  Well done. In my experience human beings tend to want to resolve tension rather than to one end of a polarity or another. Learning to manage polarity in a way that holds tension gives life. Thanks for holding that up for us.'),(81,'williamawalkeriii@gmail.com',642,1322683532,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bill Walker\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you, Jim.  I think you\'ve just summed it up well.  And thanks for <a href=\"http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_tc_2_0?rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3AJim+Herrington&amp;keywords=Jim+Herrington&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1322681187&amp;sr=1-2-ent&amp;field-contributor_id=B001KHHVHW\" rel=\"nofollow\">some of your work</a> that has guided many others in a similar but much bigger way!  It is voices like yours that remind me of the importance and transformative potential of service through the church - and that keep me vocationally committed to this.'),(82,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',643,1322691779,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAmy: I believe part of \"good for the man not to be alone\" includes an aspect of relationship that originates out of God\'s best intentions for us. Relationships, romantic or not, can serve as reflections of God\'s character. \r\n\r\nThere is a rich understanding in most Jewish history (and plenty of modern day examples) that highlights an outspokenness by women.  Also, for the Corinthian church, it is historical that women did have a dominant role in society, and many were advocates of pagan worship. In any case, I applied it here as an accepted understanding of culture, but I will search out scholarly articles. Your point is well-taken. \r\n\r\nI, too, would love to know more about Pilate\'s wife. She seemed insightful and bold--just the type of woman I\'d have as a friend. \r\n\r\nThanks for your response.'),(83,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',644,1322706547,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAmy: I believe part of \"good for the man not to be alone\" includes an aspect of relationship that originates out of God\'s best intentions for us. Relationships, romantic or not, can serve as reflections of God\'s character. Ephesians 5:22-32 offers Paul\'s parallel between Christ and the church and marriage. \r\n\r\nThere is a rich understanding in most Jewish history (and plenty of modern day examples) that highlights an outspokenness by women.  Also, for the Corinthian church, it is historical that Corinthian women did have a dominant role in society, and many were advocates of pagan worship. In any case, I applied it here as an accepted understanding of culture, but I will search out scholarly articles. Your point is well-taken. \r\n\r\nI, too, would love to know more about Pilate\'s wife. She seemed insightful and bold--just the type of woman I\'d have as a friend. \r\n\r\nThanks for your response.'),(84,'rayrayc17@live.com',645,1322710070,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nExcellent post. Pastors often feel very underappreciated and undervalued. The expectations they attempt to meet are very high and they often do not feel much gratitude expressed from their congregations. When I pastored, I was thrilled to even get a random card from a member that expressed their thanks for me and the work I was doing. Good work here, thanks for posting.'),(85,'lynch.gerard@yahoo.com',646,1322762290,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi tom lynch\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nFor clarification, I should have asked what is the point of \"intentional living\"? I understand that \"submission takes intention,\" yet that is far different to me than intentionally ordering one\'s existence and actions. To me, our only intention is to be submission and rely on radical grace for what comes next.\r\n\"To will and to do\" is provided by grace...only if we allow it and not overpower it with our plans and standards.'),(86,'pamhogeweide@gmail.com',647,1322777356,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Pam Hogeweide\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nLove this. I remember when Divine Nobodies came out. I devoured it. Jim is much too modest about his ability to write not only with resonance  but with style. He has a wonderful writing voice that is engaging and disarming. \r\n\r\nI look forward to the next two parts of this interview. WTG Jonathan!'),(87,'talkingwithyalecohn@gmail.com',648,1322785044,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Yale Cohn\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHere’s our interview with Zach where he talks about what it was like growing up with two mothers, what led him to decide to go and speak before the House of Representatives, how his life has changed after this speech thrust him into the public eye, and what other young people can do to fight for equality and speak out against intolerance.\r\n\r\nhttp://patv.tv/blog/2011/04/06/talking-with-yale-cohn-with-zach-wahls/'),(88,'lynch.gerard@yahoo.com',649,1322839305,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi tom lynch\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI absolutely love this guy, and I have yet to read his books. Which has now become a crucial Must. Thanks so much for the introduction, Jon.'),(89,'lynch.gerard@yahoo.com',650,1322839775,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi tom lynch\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI truly enjoyed this piece. The two aspects I see as the synergistic action of the soul, a tension like in that of opposing muscles making any movement or action possible. \r\nWhere I live the vast majority of Christian appear to find the \"contemplative\" too mystical, the stuff of those \"Babylonian\" Catholics.'),(90,'williamawalkeriii@gmail.com',653,1322868559,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bill Walker\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI find this to be true as well, Tom.  There are also people who have never really been exposed to or pastored through it.   And then there are those like myself who believe they need the contemplative but struggle to practice it consistently.'),(91,'joeveramu@yahoo.com',652,1322870054,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi J C Veramu\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is a very insightful and affirming interview on Jim Palmer.\r\nJim might consider uploading on Kindle and Smashwords for the global e reading public. (I notice that the book is currently available only in printed format.)\r\nAll the best to this blog and to Jim Palmer\r\nJ C Veramu'),(92,'oikoskrk@yahoo.com',651,1322870132,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Christopher Kirk\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI applaud Jim Palmer for having the courage to move forward with his message of love and acceptance.  I have been living outside of the Traditional churches box for over 30 years now.  In those years I have helped to pioneer relational and Spirit led churches that are based on love, relationship and community rather than doctrine\r\nand dogma.  Jim Palmer is free and I pray that he remains that way in spite of any traditional judgement or condemnation.\r\n\r\nChristopher Kirk\r\nhttp://notesfromthebridge.wordpress.com'),(93,'jb@thriven.org',654,1322870268,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks Pam.  Jim\'s story is so interesting and I\'m glad to be part of helping tell it.'),(94,'jb@thriven.org',655,1322870338,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nTom, Jim is the real deal.  I\'m glad you are interested in reading him.'),(95,'jb@thriven.org',656,1322870668,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWhat a powerful world it is to live outside the space of judgment.  I do believe Jim\'s message will touch a LOT of people looking for that same space.'),(96,'pamhogeweide@gmail.com',657,1322878388,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Pam Hogeweide\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n<b>For Jesus of Nazareth, life was his religion, love was his doctrine, and humankind was his church.</b>\r\n\r\nBest line I\'ve read in a long time in regards to Jesus and his life. \r\n\r\nCan\'t wait for Part 3.'),(97,'marni@relevantbrokenness.com',659,1322965004,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marni Arnold\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI am going to actually have a slightly different voice in this conversation, for I actually come from a background in which I was not always a Christian. First and foremost, I was born and raised Jewish. Secondly, however, I opted to leave Judiasm at the age of 20 to explore the avenues of Paganism that lead me down a six year path in the realm of witchcraft. Toward the end of my time practicing such a life, I found myself in the practices of Buddhism. The reasons I did this was to basically start segregating myself from Paganism because I had a very negative experience with it right before I embraced such ways into my life...and for a year prior to my accepting Christ, I was deeply involved in the Buddhist studies and practices.\r\n\r\nFrom such an experience, I learned one thing in reference to what you are asserting here...God is a jealous God. While other world religions preach the life of synchronicity...to have all of us live harmoniously as one...Jesus didn\'t come for such goal. \r\n\r\n\"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.\" (Matthew 10:34 NKJV)\r\n\r\nThose are pretty intense words straight from Jesus\' mouth Himself. God Himself.\r\n\r\nThe crying out in praise that God is above all other gods...is scrituprual. Going all the way back to Exodus in which we are informed...\"thou shalt have no other gods before Me.\" Again, God is a jealous God...and will not be shared with another. No matter how nice another person in another religion speaks of Jesus. \r\n\r\nHe is not about making nice here...He is about penetration of the sinful hearts of mankind so they will be saved. Period. Love...grace...mercy...kindness...compassion...allieviation of suffering...they all reside in Him. Anything else that touts otherwise, is truly outside of God and not how He instructs His children to live.\r\n\r\nI understand this viewpoint rubs against the very grain of society...but when push comes to shove, God cannot be watered down to satisfy the opinions we hold even as Christians ourselves.\r\n\r\nHe is almighty God...el shaddai. And if we can get out of our own way to truly embrace this truth, casting aside even what we think we understand, and our own opinions, about how we are to articulate and live out life as Christians, it is then we will experience the true freedom He tells us about in scripture...the only true freedom found in Christ.\r\n\r\nSo why not proclaim from the rooftops this truth? Why not sing it, preach it and live it? We are different in Christ because He is not of this world...and we were not created to be a part of this world, but in His everlasting embrace. The created harmoniously unified with our Creator...that is what this is truly all about; not if, and how, we should be unified with other religions in this world.'),(98,'lynch.gerard@yahoo.com',661,1323104211,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi tom lynch\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI see Mary rushing along, hurrying all the other children trying to keep up behind her, coming to have a needed talk with her son, Jesus. Her thoughts: \"He can\'t be eating well doing all this traveling around the countryside. And look at the people he has to deal with, tax collectors and prostitutes. Oi vey! And the Romans! The Romans! What about the Romans. What is he thinking? That boy, always so headstrong. He needs to settle down, raise a family, then he\'ll see the heartache of a parent.\"\r\nI see her coming upon the large crowd gathered around her son and shaking her, rushing to the nearest man to her, turning him around and ordering him to fetch her son. \"Tell him his mother is here,\" and staring down anyone who dared look in her direction.\r\nI think Jesus stole a look at his mother, tried to convey with his eyes the sorrow at what he had to say next. And I think she saw and understood this brief exchange, knowing only as a mother would know that her son was now beyond her caring reach. \r\nWhat did she experience on the long walk home? Or did she follow her son, now afraid to let him out of her sight, and still determined to have a word with him?\r\nIf we take, as you pointed out, \"A young woman who looked THE FREAKING ARCHANGEL GABRIEL in the EYE and said “Yessir, I will give birth to the SON OF GOD.” What the what??\" What the what would she do?'),(99,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',662,1323115520,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMarnni,\r\nThank you for taking time to share some of your perspective. I honor your journey and respect your opinion. I think you will find you are not alone in your opinion, and perhaps some readers will find comfort in your comment.\r\n\r\nTo me, i do not think Jesus\' \'sword\' was opposing the good/true/beautiful things of other religions (Judaism included of course)...but opposing selfish, worldly desires present in all of us (Christians/ his followers included of course). If we summarize Jesus\' teaching as the two greatest commandments (Love the Lord &amp; Love your Neighbor)...then I think that just may include living in unity with our neighbors (of differing religions).'),(100,'jb@thriven.org',663,1323116806,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI would also suggest that Jesus was deeply informed by Judaism, and it creates the basis for our understanding of Christianity.  And what I think Bronwen is suggesting is that we have lots to learn from other faiths as well.  Every major and minor faith has love at its core.'),(101,'travismamone83@gmail.com',664,1323120462,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Travis Mamone\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI don\'t know about you, but I like the slippery slope I\'m on!'),(102,'pamhogeweide@gmail.com',665,1323126112,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Pam Hogeweide\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGood one Joy. I love naked trees. I live in Portland where there are plenty of glorious, stripped bare trees on every block. \r\n\r\nI wrote a rare poem about this a few years ago. It is the only poem I have ever read in public.  I think you\'ll like it as it is in step so much with what you have written here.\r\n\r\nHere\'s the link.....!\r\n\r\nhttp://godmessedmeup.blogspot.com/2011/01/strong-tree-i-stand-poem-from-my-secret.html'),(103,'anna@woofenden.net',666,1323132871,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Anna Woofenden\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nTravis,\r\nI wouldn\'t trade it! It\'s an exciting journey and God keeps getting bigger--which is a good thing in my book!\r\nPeace,\r\nAnna'),(104,'jb@thriven.org',667,1323133358,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGod always gets bigger when we start embracing grace. ;-P'),(105,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',668,1323135293,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nPam, your poem is glorious.  You know exactly what I mean.  You need to write more poetry, girl!'),(106,'wjkampe@comcast.net',669,1323137493,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jake Kampe\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAnd although the tree looks dead, from all outward appearances, the life giving nutrients are still moving through the branches, fed by the Vine.  Let us continue to abide until Spring!'),(107,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',670,1323137715,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThat\'s a whole lot better than giving up, isn\'t it, Jake.'),(108,'brandnewday1@eplus.net',671,1323148668,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Steve Brannon\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWhat a wonderful message, so full of hope.  I know what the dark season is about.  Also, I know what it is to see the first light of the spring sun come over the horizon after the long, long winter.  Thank you for being you, Joy.'),(109,'marni@relevantbrokenness.com',672,1323149957,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marni Arnold\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI certainly agree to this, Jonathan - for the foundation of the Christian faith is truly rooted in Judaism. You can\'t have one without the other. I also agree that we can definitely learn from others\' of other faiths - for, alone, at the core of the monotheistic Judaism, Christian and Islam) religions, there is one father; Abraham. Also, including other faiths outside Christianity, human beings truly are all of God\'s creation - so almost by default there will be elements of truth woven in other worldly religions belief systems. Yet, even considering these things, though we are to respect others of differing beliefs, Christians aren\'t called to forego the commission we have been given by God Himself (to spread the gospel unto all the nations).\r\n\r\nWe encounter a slippery slope when the lines are blurred between respecting others of other faiths...and embracing, or even agreeing in mutuality, the truths they ascribe to as \"truth\"; and this plays with a line that honestly is extremely tempting to cross.\r\n\r\nWe, as Christians, need to be very careful of just what we let into our hearts as truth - for as the sinful creatures we are in our natures, what tends to sound good, really isn\'t good. It\'s kind of like candy. It tastes really good, but in the long run - it isn\'t the best for us (especially in copious amounts).\r\n\r\nThis is the division I firmly believe God is asserting here in the scripture I referenced above. The sword will divide, and it\'s intended to...but it doesn\'t mean we can\'t respect one another. We can, and should, certainly do such a thing...but we need to truly keep our eyes and hearts focused on Who holds the absolute truth above all - and follow Him.'),(110,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',674,1323175770,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI grew up in the north and love winter, but the darkness always seems long. Darkness of the heart seems endless.  I\'m glad God gave me this visual picture of His/Her truth about perseverance, because I sure need it a lot.'),(111,'pamhogeweide@gmail.com',676,1323187601,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Pam Hogeweide\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI love that you refer to God as Him/Her!'),(112,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',677,1323187838,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGod is both maternal and paternal to me.'),(113,'katiejosuddaby@gmail.com',673,1323188510,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Katie Jo\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJoy, thank you for this article. I was just speaking with a friend the other day about how we need both life-filled and dormant periods in life.  If we are \"up\" all the time, we become manic, unbalanced.  What\'s more, without the emotional \'winters,\' we miss out on some amazing self-reflection, poetry, and conversations that seem to only happen in the melancholy times.  Your article got me thinking about the trees. It\'s almost like God is sending us a message every fall: \"It\'s ok to lose your leaves every once in a while. It\'s natural.\"  Accepting that in myself helps me keep my branches through the cold months.'),(114,'afutureandahope@gmail.com',675,1323188511,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Johnny Brooks\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGreat interview. I have loved Jim since Divine Nobodies and am looking forward to the new book.'),(115,'rayrayc17@live.com',678,1323190322,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis has been a really good series and interview, Jonathan. My heart breaks for Jim and I wish him the best knowing that there is a purpose for all these things. Even though there\'s a purpose for Zondervan doing what they did, his current situation still must hurt and I\'m glad that it was brought to light. Thanks for doing this and good luck to Jim.'),(116,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',679,1323192901,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nKatie Jo,\r\n\r\nI haven\'t really thought about emotional winters being a natural balance to our \"up\" times. That\'s a fresh idea for meditation.  Thank you.\r\n\r\nDue to my clinical depression, emotional winter comes often and can stay a long time, and sometimes spring means \"less dark\".  But I don\'t drop my branches, because the green leaves always come, though not at times of my own choosing.  God who never leaves is my salvation, and I\'ve learned to accept things as they are, knowing that I can trust Him/Her for all I need with hope leftover to share with someone else.'),(117,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',680,1323200434,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen.Henry\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nOh, thank you so much for this honest reflection. I very much appreciate it.'),(118,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',681,1323201198,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI wrote the poem for me, then wrote the article for those of us depressed at or by Christmas, and then realized everyone could benefit by the last sentence in the poem.'),(119,'rayrayc17@live.com',682,1323233971,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJoy, great article. I\'m not a fan of the season either. And I\'m not saying that as a \"we don\'t celebrate it for what it\'s supposed to be\" statement either. There\'s no mandate to celebrate the birth of Christ in the first place.\r\n\r\nI love giving stuff to my kids. But I hate being around a bunch of people. I hate the depression I know it brings during this yearly cycle. The remembrance of a time not too long ago when a bunch of crap came at me real fast.\r\n\r\nSo, I hear you. Don\'t care for it, don\'t like it, but I smile at everyone else and move on, happy to know that someone else is enjoying it.'),(120,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',683,1323263505,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI appreciate what you said, Ray.  I\'ve come to accept that this is the way it is for me, but it\'s rough.  \r\n\r\nMy favorite Christmas cookies as a child were the roll-out kind that you cut with cookie cutters, frost, then decorate with sprinkles.  They are my kids favorite\'s, too.  All the way up through high school they would bring their friends over to decorate the cookies, and the kitchen would end up trashed in six colors of icing, red and green sugar, mini-chocolate chips, and rainbow sprinkles.  It was great fun to watch them.\r\n\r\nMonday I baked cookies for six hours and froze them for now.  Will decorate them Christmas week. Cried most of the time for both good and bad memories.  Two of my children are in very painful life circumstances, and I cried for them.  And I cried because  I\'m depressed this time of year.  But I made the cookies anyway, knowing this tradition really means something to my family.  It\'s the only sweet I\'ll make, because it\'s the one they care about, and I care about them.  And like I wrote, God gives me what I need.'),(121,'dabeirne926@yahoo.com',684,1323353508,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi DaveAlan\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nwhat about the incident when He was 12, at the temple confounding the elders? \"Did you not know I would be about my Father\'s business?\" Later on, calling God as His Father would result in the Jews wanting to kill Him (e.g., John 5). At that age, would an awareness of God as His Father be = to a consciousness of His messiahship?'),(122,'rayrayc17@live.com',685,1323353904,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAbsolutely. I asked one of my professors about this. More proof that the humanity of Christ is a struggle for a lot of people. Its not something a lot of people in the pew even think about. Thanks for your comment.'),(123,'lynch.gerard@yahoo.com',686,1323383563,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi tom lynch\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJesus performed no acts or miracles by his divinity. The Father did the works. He lived and acted only as fully human. Or at least that is how I came to see it one day. That floored me. What insight came next also shook my foundations: it was by being FULLY human that he manifested his divinity. None of us, it appears, seem capable of our full human potential and there are endless reasons for this. If we were fully human, we would realize and live the image and likeness of God, in which we were created. Sanctification, I feel, is the process of becoming as near as possible to being fully human..'),(124,'ToddDoogleman@gmail.com',687,1323386352,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Todd Doogleman\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nSounds like a cult to me...'),(125,'brooke.eikenberry@gmail.com',688,1323386465,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Brooke Eikenberry\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI think attention to strange details, like wearing lipstick, certainly is a red flag, be it for ministries or even businesses. In very few instances does it really make sense-- the only one I can think of is modelling, where lipstick is often if not always necessary (and may in fact be what you are modelling). And that is it-- when churches started placing undo attention on details relating to \"image\", be it the church\'s image or even that of it\'s members, it often leads to focusing on things that ultimately have nothing to do with Christ.'),(126,'jb@thriven.org',689,1323387333,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI\'m just curious why you think that Todd.  Could you expand a little more?'),(127,'rayrayc17@live.com',690,1323388580,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nTom,\r\nWell said. I spent much of my time wrestling with the fact that Christ was just so human. But when I did realize it, it made me realize that I had found in myself amazing capability to be great things as a created being. It freed me to be something wonderful as the child of God.'),(128,'scottinthenw@gmail.com',691,1323403125,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi scott\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI am not sure who \"him\" is in the above quote. If he is referring to our president. Then I would add that not only is congress bought and paid for. So is the president. The occupy movement blames Capitalism. However, in todays common understanding, capitalism is the combination of free market and central governmental planning, which is entirely wrong of course. Nonetheless, the sentiment of the occupy crowd is correct. And understandable. I have enjoyed watching Peter Schiff, a 1%er, engage the occupy crowd, trying to direct their frustration at WashingtonD.C. instead of Wall Street.  \r\n\r\nIt is over regulated, bloated policies that have created an environment for corruption. The ability of legislative and executive power to grant favors to those willing to pay for them seems to grow increasing worse with time.  I truly believe this is what is at the heart of the occpy movements complaint.'),(129,'scottinthenw@gmail.com',692,1323404731,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi scott\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI was able read the transcript. Two things to add to my above comment. First. President Obama is equally as guilty as congress in this country\'s mess. The president telling congress to start behaving in the interest of the people is like the pot telling the pan to clean of the grease. They are both guilty of the same (grime) crime. Second, the comment was made that our problem stems back 20 years. In my opinion, our problems started much further back. I would like to suggest, this nation\'s problems started as far back as when we nationalized banks and created the Federal Reserve.  The occupy movement would have been far more effective if they were around at that time. Now, it would seem, the frustration is too little too late.'),(130,'jb@thriven.org',694,1323405828,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nActually I would restate that.  Obama is bought by the same system, which is the problem.'),(131,'jb@thriven.org',693,1323405828,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nScott, I agree with you that Obama is part of the problem.'),(132,'scottinthenw@gmail.com',695,1323418414,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi scott\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWith respect. Let\'s not make these politicians out to be victims of the system. This so-called system is not some elusive creature wandering around seeking whom he may devour. The system was created, tinkered with, modified and nurtured by the very folks who created it. We, who are patronizingly refered  as main street, are the actual victims of a cozy relationship between statist and corporatists.\r\n\r\n.......and I don\'t have a lot of hope that there will be any change.'),(133,'rayrayc17@live.com',696,1323421335,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJimmy Williams sounded like a beat down step-child. The two women were trying to go with the flow. Nice find, Jonathan.'),(134,'rayrayc17@live.com',697,1323421819,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWhoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second.\r\n\r\nAre you saying .... hold on. I may have read this wrong. It\'s late. I am sleep deprived and I read a ton of stuff. Probably a book\'s worth of material after 1 am. \r\n\r\nAre you saying a church asked you to wear lipstick for appearance sake? If that is the case, that is freaking wrong. And you have a lawsuit. Especially if you were fired over it. I don\'t have a law degree, but I\'ll represent you. We\'ll make millions.'),(135,'brooke.eikenberry@gmail.com',700,1323440613,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Brooke Eikenberry\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIn the post I didn\'t actually elaborate whether the organization was a company or a church. Although, given that I used it as an story to lead into a conversation about the Church as a whole, it doesn\'t surprise me that this is a conclusion my readers are making. I think I shall use the Church of England\'s policy re: possible monarchy pregnancies and neither confirm nor deny. Also, as I go on to say in a later paragraph, I came in without lipstick very shortly after the threat and was not fired. I did leave the organization soon after, as I had multiple issues with their policies. This is merely the icing on the cake. ; )\n\nThat being said, for the sake of discussion say this was a church? Should a fellow believer sue when this happens?  Or like a previous commenter suggested, is it something that should immediately suggest a cult to us? I would really be interested in hearing your thoughts!'),(136,'briansmoovbsmith@gmail.com',699,1323445498,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Brian Smith\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI believe strongly that there is one God and that He saves people from all different faith traditions. \r\n\r\nAlso, I think humans always get into trouble when they start comparing themselves to each other as if they have different intrinsic worths. \r\n\r\nI think it was Rabbi Wolpe who said, \"its not my job to prove the superiority of Judaism, but its excellence.\" I like that and its disarming. \r\n\r\nHowever, I really do think that Christianity, (on its good days when it is about Christ) has something uniquely important to offer. (almost) All religions have the concept of the Divine, but Christianity teaches how that divine is manifest as a human. In Christianity we have the opportunity to worship a knowable God. This is the reason that I won\'t trade Christianity for anything, even though I am confident that Jesus Christ can save people born into any religious tradition.\r\n\r\n  ..'),(137,'briansmoovbsmith@gmail.com',698,1323445572,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Brian Smith\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI believe strongly that there is one God and that He saves people from all different faith traditions. \r\n\r\nAlso, I think humans always get into trouble when they start comparing themselves to each other as if they have different intrinsic worths. \r\n\r\nI think it was Rabbi Wolpe who said, \"its not my job to prove the superiority of Judaism, but its excellence.\" I like that and its disarming. \r\n\r\nHowever, I really do think that Christianity, (on its good days when it is about Christ) has something uniquely important to offer. (almost) All religions have the concept of the Divine, but Christianity teaches how that divine is manifest as a human. In Christianity we have the opportunity to worship a knowable God. This is the reason that I won\'t trade Christianity for anything, even though I am confident that Jesus Christ can save people born into any religious tradition.'),(138,'jb@thriven.org',701,1323447299,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nScott I\'m not denying they have a choice to be part and partake in the system.  Every system is created and nurtured by human beings.  But when we demonize those who participate in the system, it solidifies the problem.  No one can escape or change because we blame human beings that are already in the system.'),(139,'melhhanson@yahoo.com',702,1323472588,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Melody Harrison Hanson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWrong, just plain wrong to dwell on the external and superficial.  It\'s crap, whether it\'s in the church or at a job.  Weird, my dad was a control freak and used to \"make\" my mom wear her lipstick too.  Creepy, controlling and wrong.'),(140,'brooke.eikenberry@gmail.com',703,1323485772,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Brooke Eikenberry\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI just don\'t get the lipstick obsession. My husband doesn\'t either; he thinks I look great with or without it and doesn\'t really give an opinion beyond that, but I KNOW he doesn\'t like kissing a mouth full of lipstick. Blech, who would? I think that control-wise, it\'s pretty useful to have people overly worried about tiny details, like reapplying lipstick 500 times a day. It keeps them from noticing other things wrong in the company, ministry, relationship or other sick system. \n\nMan looks at the outer appearance, God looks at the heart. It makes me wonder what church leaders today who focus on image and appearance so much would do if they came face to face with Christ incarnate: \"....he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.\" (Isaiah 53:2). Slap a little lipstick on him! ; )'),(141,'john@spreadtheflame.com',704,1323504006,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi John Lambert\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI live and work in a majority Buddhist nation and study Buddhism as it is taught and practiced here on an ongoing basis.  I have dedicated by life to understand the Buddhist here in Southeast Asia as well as work to build bridges to understanding rather than walls.  \r\n\r\nThat being said, I feel that this article is simply sloppy and displays that the author does not truly understand her own Christian faith as well as the faith of most Buddhists.  In speaking like this, she dishonors both.\r\n\r\nFirst, Buddha could never be a savior because his primary teaching is that there is no savior but oneself.  \"Depend on yourself\" is the mantra of Buddhist teaching.  This is completely antithetical to Jesus who told us \"without me you can do nothing.\"\r\n\r\nIn Buddhism there is no room for or belief in a Creator God who is the highest God.  \"gods\" (if one chooses to incorporate this view into their understanding) in Buddhism are just like humans in the sense that they too are subject to the law of karma.  Buddhists would call God \"awija\" or ignorance, from which we must escape.\r\n\r\nChristianity is about love: Love God supremely and love others as yourself. (To me, this can include speaking the truth in love).  Islam is about \"submission.\"  Buddhism emphasizes \"compassion\" for all sentient beings but in the end, you are on your own, subject to your own karma.  For instance, if you are handicapped or a child with Aids, then it happened because of your own deeds.  To the Buddhist, love itself is a form of karma and is something to be eradicated on the pathway to Nirvana, ie) nothingness or being extinguished.\r\n\r\nWe can be respectful of other people and their culture while still contending for truth.  This is true love and not the easy way out like saying \"all roads lead to the same place.\" In fact, it would not be loving at all to have the truth (Jesus) and then to act like there are other equal truths.  He is above all (name above every other name given among men whereby we MUST be saved).\r\n\r\nSwedenborg is saying that a nation can be saved by keeping moral precepts??  If this is the case, all nations including Buddhist nations are doomed!  The scriptures do teach that God has given general revelation and common grace to all peoples, but the New Testament also says that he has \"overlooked the times of men\'s ignorance, but now he commands men everywhere to repent because he has fixed a day when he will judge all of mankind through this one that he has appointed, Jesus the Chist.\"\r\n\r\nMorality is not the Gospel at all.  The keeping of rules and laws is not good news.  It is a burden that no person can carry in his own power.\r\n\r\nThe Gospel is that there is nothing that we can do to be saved in and of ourselves yet God made a way for us through sending Jesus as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of us all.  However we must hear his offer of salvation and place our explicit faith in him alone.  God has called his people to this challenge in their generation.  (Matthew 28:18-20, Matthew 24:14)\r\n\r\nGod Almighty has fully revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ.  The Scriptures tell us that \"in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.\"\r\n\r\nBuddha taught many great things based on the insights that he had in his generation.  He saw that the world is suffering and that our desires (even the desire to love) causes suffering, he believed that suffering and dissatisfaction could be eradicated by a faithfully consistent adherence to an eight fold path.  He knew what he knew, but it was not enough.  \r\n\r\nJesus is enough, both philosophically and in reality.  Until you are certain of that fact, you will stay wishy washy and not really able to help anyone find true enlightenment and the freedom that comes through reconciliation with the God who created us...on his terms, not ours.'),(142,'cdgoble@gmail.com',705,1323543912,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Clark Goble\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWhat a wonderful article! I don\'t have all the answers either, but this is a conversation we need to have. Adults need to work to stop bullying! \r\n\r\nThanks for writing this.'),(143,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',706,1323544098,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBrian, thanks for your comment. That is a beautiful quote from Rabbi Wolpe. I appreciate your passion. I am interested in learning the challenging path to walk with humility and confidence.'),(144,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',707,1323545246,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJohn,\r\nThanks for taking time to share this comment and your perspective. I will try and steer clear of your criticism that you begin with and focus on the heart of your thoughtful message. In my article I spoke from experience, and my hope was to pose questions and provoke thought not to draw specific conclusions about either religion.\r\n\r\nI am interested in what it means to walk humbly with our God. How does one follow Jesus Christ with humility and confidence? (I pose these questions to myself, more than to any specific reader).\r\n\r\nTell me more about your thinking on all nations being doomed (if salvation is, as Swedenborg says, \'by keeping moral precepts\')? I don\'t think I understand your disagreement with that notion.\r\n\r\nCan someone do the work of repentance without direct access to the New Testament gospel (knowledge of Jesus &amp; his journey)? I think that they can. And from my experience (not scholarly training on Buddhism), I observe buddhist doing important work of repentance of trying to shun/let go of negativity and open up to a positive force AND be a loving/positive force in this world (these are my words/paraphrase, not direct buddhist teaching).\r\n\r\nTo me, seeing the beauty of what the creator is doing through all religions does not dishonor the role of the Lord God Jesus Christ, but in fact elevates it to being so impactful, so transformative, that the influence of Jesus Christ is not limited to the Christian walk.'),(145,'jb@thriven.org',708,1323545581,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI would also add that before someone is a Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Atheist, or Hindu (or any category for that matter) one is first a human being created in the image of God.  What i think, and clarify me if I\'m wrong Bronwen, is that you are suggesting God is at work in the person regardless of their practice. And what you found beautiful is someone recognizing that beauty in your faith. \n\nGrace is established by God, not in the belief of the person.  if it was, it would be works.  Grace is simply recognized in the belief of the person. \n\nI personally have a lot of friends who are Buddhist and they would whole heartedly disagree with your assessment John.  I don\'t doubt that this is YOUR assessment.  Just be careful not to assume it is the practice of everyone.'),(146,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',709,1323547476,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHa!  \"Slap a little lipstick on him!\"  That made me giggle.  I can only imagine.\r\n\r\nIt\'s definitely a bad sign when outward appearance becomes the focus.  I\'ve been to churches where a single detail becomes overwhelmingly important to some people, to the point of obsession.  In trying to fix that one perceived flaw, the leadership have overlooked more pressing concerns.\r\n\r\nI suspect that a lot of it is that church leaders worry when their congregations aren\'t growing at the same rate as other, similar churches.  Panic clouds their thinking and they begin to dwell on the unimportant details, as though that\'s what\'s keeping people away.\r\n\r\nAnd my husband would agree with yours about the lipstick.  The last time I ever kissed him with lipstick on was at our wedding, and he made such a face that everyone started laughing.'),(147,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',710,1323547633,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIt\'s hard to be an adult on the \"outside\" of things.  I no longer work at a school, but even when I did, I often felt powerless.  The one time I defended a kid who had spent the better part of the year being bullied, I was reprimanded for my sympathy.  Maybe what we can do is put the power back in the hands of the kids themselves to stop their peers.  If we adults empower them, maybe they can make a difference.'),(148,'john@spreadtheflame.com',712,1323580986,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi John Lambert\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYou guys are good at being respectful and I respect that, honestly I do.  \r\n\r\nThe Apostle Paul, writer of 2/3 of the New Testament...(who was confirmed in his position as a true Apostle by the Apostle Peter himself (2 Peter 3:15), who was chief among the Apostles that had personally been with Jesus) \r\n\r\nasks the key questions of \"HOW?\" (see Romans 10:13-15) which leads to action to be taken by the church of Jesus to fulfill his command of Matthew 28:18-20 and other such similar commission verses.\r\n\r\nWe know that the nations have enough general revelation to make them accountable to God, but not enough to save them. (see Romans 1:18-32).  Since we all have sinned against God and there is none that is righteous in God\'s sight (Romans 3:10, 23), we must come to God, lay down our arms of self righteousness and pride (religion included), and humbly confess with our own mouths the absolute truth of his message of the resurrection of Jesus and his perfect and absolute Lordship (Romans 10:9-10).  \r\n\r\nOur (personal and innate) sin has separated us from God (Rom 6:23), so from what I understand, we all have a disease sin (\"harmatia\": missing the mark of perfection) and nothing imperfect or not perfectly holy can be in God\'s presence.  The only cure is Jesus Christ, being sent as God\'s perfect substitute and cure for the common sickness of all mankind.  For his work to be in effect, we must \"receive\" him and be saved from the \"wrath to come.\" (Acts 4:12, John 1:12, I John 5:12-13, I Ths 1:10)\r\n\r\nMay God\'s true enlightenment be upon your path as you search out the truth.'),(149,'jb@thriven.org',713,1323630370,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJohn, I created Provoketive to be a space of healthy dialogue without judgment.  Something good happens when we\'re honest in our thoughts without getting angry at each other.  Your voice is always welcome here.\n\nI also appreciate your thought process.  But I wouldn\'t share one of your (historical) assumptions.  You said, \"and nothing imperfect or not perfectly holy can be in God’s presence.\" This is a fallacy that the entirety of Scripture debunks, beginning with the first moment of sin in the Garden.  God shows up immediately to restore.  It is humanity that consistently makes the assumption we can\'t be in God\'s presence, as seen in Adam and Eve\'s hiding from God. If this idea were actually true it would limit God and debunk the idea of grace, which existed before time (2 Timothy 1:9).  Grace was always present.  It was humanity that couldn\'t see it.\n\nAnd you said, \"May God’s true enlightenment be upon your path as you search out the truth.\" How very Buddhist of you. ;-P'),(150,'levitt.mike@gmail.com',714,1323633774,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Michael Levitt\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIf pastors that fall still receive the call from God to be a pastor, then I have a message for for those church members and other members of society that disagree with God\'s call:\r\n\r\nRead John 8: 1-11.\r\n\r\nBlessings!'),(151,'jb@thriven.org',715,1323634051,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI find it interesting that beforehand, God\'s call seems to be directed from God.  But when a fall happens, we\'re so easily willing to think a person can invalidate that call.'),(152,'rayrayc17@live.com',716,1323640045,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMichael,\r\n\r\nJohn 8 is one of the passages I followed out of the guilt, confusion and shame I felt after my fall. It\'s one of the passages I spend a lot of time on in the book. Christ was the only one who had a right to judge the adulterous woman in John 8. Instead, He chose to show compassion and love.\r\n\r\nJonathan,\r\n\r\nExcellent point. It\'s almost the same as thinking we can snatch ourselves out of the hand of the Father (John 10), when He said no one can.'),(153,'dklinefirst@yahoo.com',717,1323647004,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi David\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWhen I asked a pastor this very question about the possibility of my someday returning to ministry, he quoted Romans 11:29 and then only moments later he made the comment that he \"wouldn\'t support\" me but \"wouldn\'t stand in my way.\" Huh? God\'s call is either irrevocable or it isn\'t. When I asked another pastor about it, he suggested that i \"go to the foreign mission field where they don\'t care about that sort of thing.\" It\'s a tough one to be sure. This one thing I know: I\'ve never met anyone in any church who had perfectly clean hands and a perfectly pure heart... apart from grace, that it is. It would be nice to think that our mistakes don\'t forever disqualify us from God\'s call, but the truth is, whether they do or don\'t, it is a very long road back if we choose to take it.'),(154,'rayrayc17@live.com',718,1323661480,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nDavid,\r\n\r\nYou\'re right, friend. I say that I\'m not sure, but part of me is. A man who has been restored and is repentant, as you say, has a long road ahead of him. He has people he has to regain trust from, a system to work through and a process within himself that is mind numbing.\r\n\r\nHowever, I don\'t ever see God turning His back on the man. During the process, the man may find himself doing other things and he most certainly finds himself a better and different type of minister. \r\n\r\nIt\'s a long road, but it\'s always a minute distance of between us and God when it comes to forgiveness, thanks to Christ.'),(155,'QueerAsFaith@gmail.com',719,1323670044,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ryan Nix\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nLove the article. Christianity does have hyper-masculine overtones. I feel that I was taught very well when I was young growing up in a \"spirit filled\" church environment. One of the things I remember is a message where we talked about some of the names of God, like El Shaddai, which as I was taught is a feminine gender word that means breasted one. Doing a quick search on the phrase I found this from a Rabbi tailing about it, hearing it from a Jewish point of view give a depth of meaning (usually) that we don\'t get in the english translated faith we have today. Here is the link. http://www.theshalomcenter.org/node/303'),(156,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',720,1323707256,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGreat article!  I didn\'t know that\'s what it meant.  What beautiful imagery.  Psalm 131:2 uses a motherly metaphor as well: \"But I have stilled and quieted my soul; like a weaned child with its mother, like a weaned child is my soul within me.\"  I love the idea that we can draw comfort from God as both mother and father.'),(157,'diannaeanderson@gmail.com',721,1323710300,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Dianna\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nOh, phew! When I first saw the headline, I was wondering if Alise had suddenly had a strange 180 turnabout on the issue! But, actually, this makes one hell of a lot of sense. These are really good thoughts - thanks for this, Alise!'),(158,'velvetrabbit13@gmail.com',722,1323716486,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bekkah\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI too was wondering where this was going as it was easy to make an assumption based on the title ;)\r\n\r\nLove this, Alise.  Funny that the words meant to condemn gay marriage said by Michele Bachmann, in effect have actually condoned it.'),(159,'jo.s.malone@gmail.com',723,1323717117,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jo Malone\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI didn\'t think for a second that you were opposed to marriage equality from the headline - love your work!\r\n\r\nI\'m going to do my gay volunteering at the Salvation Army today (now, THAT stirs up contention for some people). Tonight I\'m going to do some gay packing so my partner and our kids can go on a gay holiday for a few days.\r\n\r\nHave a gay day y\'all!'),(160,'pamhogeweide@gmail.com',724,1323717310,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Pam Hogeweide\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGreat play on words and hook for your article! \r\n\r\nAnd of course, you make a strong, valid point. \r\n\r\nGood stuff..!'),(161,'royalfamily12@gmail.com',725,1323718524,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Amy Mitchell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI love, love, love this!  I stopped calling it \"gay marriage\" ages ago and have long since referred to marriage equality, out of respect for the many people in my life with same-sex partners.  For the same reason, I object to people referring to it as \"the gay lifestyle\" (what does that even mean?) and \"the gay agenda.\"  I\'m proud to live in a state where marriage equality already exists by law.'),(162,'staucody72@gmail.com',726,1323723393,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Cody Stauffer\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nExcellent.'),(163,'williamawalkeriii@gmail.com',728,1323725705,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bill Walker\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is great, Travis - \"we wait for the day when Jesus comes to bring light into the darkness.\" Having this alongside of \"we don’t have to wait around in order to have peace; we can work for peace right now.\"  The already-not yet is hard to live in, and yet we must live in it.'),(164,'melhhanson@yahoo.com',729,1323727239,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Melody H Hanson (@melodyhhanson)\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIt hit me Sunday that one of the reasons I doubted \"everything\" about God as I grew up (I\'m developing a list) is Christmas and how we celebrate it. \r\n\r\nThe whole thing has been hijacked by a secular idea and even if it weren\'t secular (because I don\'t have problem with secular what I have a problem with is the way we pull it into church!  And into our lives as believers. \r\n\r\n Then I read this article by Ann VosKamp and I realized why.  You must read this.  http://www.aholyexperience.com/2011/12/when-christmas-gets-radical-whose-birthday-is-it-really/ \r\n\r\nI am not brave enough to change, at least not completely, not this year.  But this is what it should be about.  Beyond that, I\'m with you and really depressed.   Thank you for being honest.'),(165,'moonsn11@gmail.com',727,1323727743,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Sarah Moon\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI once read a tweet by Chris Coulfer (Kurt on Glee) that went something like (hugely paraphrased): \"I don\'t call it gay marriage. I call it marriage. I don\'t park my gay car in my gay garage\"'),(166,'apprisingministries@gmail.com',730,1323734566,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ken Silva\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nOur Creator defines marriage as between a man and a woman, period: “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man [male] shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife [woman, female] and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh.\" (Matthew 19:4-6)'),(167,'jb@thriven.org',731,1323735527,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nKen, just wanted to ask where the word marriage is in that statement.  I\'m not finding it.'),(168,'alise.d.wright@gmail.com',732,1323736549,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi AliseWrite\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI do love to cause terror among folks who read regularly! ;-D\r\n\r\nNope, I\'m still firmly LGBT affirming. Just figured it was time to talk about why I don\'t ever talk about gay marriage.'),(169,'apprisingministries@gmail.com',733,1323736907,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ken Silva\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWell, Jonathan; I\'m guessing that since the context is a disccusion the Pharisees were having with Jesus re. divorcing one\'s wife, we on pretty safe ground assuming we\'re talking about marriage. I hope this clears the fog for you.'),(170,'alise.d.wright@gmail.com',734,1323736969,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi AliseWrite\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIf I can make Michele Bachmann speak out in favor of marriage equality, I\'m all over it. Ha!'),(171,'alise.d.wright@gmail.com',735,1323737204,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi AliseWrite\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWe\'re enjoyed some straight eggs and bacon for supper. Now we\'re watching straight Jeopardy. \r\n\r\nI think those would be WAY more fun if they were gay.'),(172,'alise.d.wright@gmail.com',736,1323738127,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi AliseWrite\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYeah, I jettisoned both of those phrases a while ago. Especially \"gay lifestyle.\" Because seriously? That just doesn\'t mean anything at all. I held onto gay marriage longer, but it\'s been out for a pretty long time. Just never said anything about why I quit using it until now.'),(173,'alise.d.wright@gmail.com',737,1323739682,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi AliseWrite\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThat\'s funny - I was totally tweeting about Colfer today. His singing makes me all swoony.'),(174,'alise.d.wright@gmail.com',738,1323741113,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi AliseWrite\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI understand that this is how you read this passage. But given that marriage has changed significantly since the time of Christ anyway (and even more from the time of Genesis), I consider those words to be more prescriptive than definitive. In other words, if you\'re married, be with your spouse - put their needs first. I think this applies regardless of the sex of the people in said marriage.'),(175,'apprisingministries@gmail.com',739,1323742435,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ken Silva\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAnd I understand how you read this passage as well. The covenant of marriage, as only being between a man and a woman, as described by our Creator hasn\'t changed at all; because God doesn\'t change. That said, no doubt culture\'s ideas of marriage have most certainlychanged. I have no doubt that one day soon it\'ll even completely sanction same-sex marriage. However, that will be in spite of the Word of God, not because of it.'),(176,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',740,1323744282,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThe problem for me -- in me -- is all this rah rah fanfare that is supposed to be about love often isn\'t at all.  It\'s about stuff -- having it, buying it, seeking it, trying to buy love with it, trying to be \"good enough\" with it.\r\n\r\nI read that article you attached.  She doesn\'t have my depression, but she has a similar heart to mine.  But oh, girl.......the music on that site.  I\'m still listening to it an hour after reading the post.  So I thank YOU for that gift.'),(177,'apprisingministries@gmail.com',741,1323746271,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ken Silva\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n\"I would also suggest that Jesus was deeply informed by Judaism\"\r\n\r\nYou do realize that Jesus is God Himself in human flesh, right. He is the only authority by which a man may come to salvation (cf. Acts 4:10-12).'),(178,'jb@thriven.org',742,1323755867,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI didn\'t say otherwise.'),(179,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',743,1323796330,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nClark, you wrote, \"If you have experienced the pain of divorce, you may be tempted to hide yourself in the darkness. For fear of judgment and ridicule you may avoid your church and Christian friends. You may be tempted to withdraw from God.\"  I did the same kind of hiding from church, family and Christian friends during divorce because I already KNEW some of them had the guillotine waiting for me -- the message was loud and clear.  Because of those few individuals, I was unwilling to take the risk of attack and having to defend myself with everyone else.  It felt safer to hide from everyone rather than expose my need and place myself in the position of being shot.\r\n\r\nI struggle with the very same issues currently regarding depression and addiction.  I know the few I can trust, know those who must be avoided at all costs, but hide myself from the rest of the people in my church, family and friends because I feel I can\'t handle any other shrapnel.  I would rather risk of missing out on someone\'s support than setting myself up as a dart board.\r\n\r\nAnd yet, I\'ve learned that God still is willing to grant us His/Her discerning spirit, which includes knowing when to speak and when to stay silent.  And God still sends individuals who love us no matter what -- assistant Shepherds sent to seek the lost sheep.  Like you, I\'ve delayed some of the support God sent me because I wasn\'t ready to receive it.  Like you, I have a few obnoxiously persistant friends who won\'t give up on me and follow God\'s leadership and heart into the wilderness as long and often as it takes to reach me.\r\n\r\nThank you for your post.  I\'m thankful for both of us that God has sent us people who care enough not to give up.  And I\'m grateful we now know how crucial it is to extend that to other people.'),(180,'joe@rijenterprises.com',744,1323796872,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joe Machuta\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIn spite of the gospel Ken? Really?'),(181,'dwicks54@yahoo.es',746,1323800843,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi wiskers\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nyes, I agree with Ken. God doesn´t change  even though we may from time to time but I don´t think there has ever been a time when same sex marriage existed in any legal format until these days. That strikes me as at the very least significant. But the point isn´t only this. The point is whether we understand marriage as between a man and a woman. Divorce the reproductive purpose of marriage from the relationship and you can more or less agree to anything but the unfortunate fact is that men and women have natural children that bond them, same sex partners cannot. You can find diverse ways around the problem but not naturally.\r\n\r\nIn a liberal society such as the western world is one has to learn to live with other options but my worldview is that if samesex marriage were to become the norm it would bring about substantial changes to natural childbearing and that is the part which has the strongest argument against. Sorry folks. But there are strong and natural arguments against same sex marriages. The fact that the Bible even mentions it clearly indicates this too. I would like to hear gay christians making their point though. I haven´t heard them discussing the issue.'),(182,'r-a-s@cox.net',745,1323800844,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ruth Schmid\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYour writing has encouraged my heart. I can\'t say that I have integrated what you\'ve written, but my heart cries for this truth to be a reality in my life - my marriage - my church! May God continue to raise us up to be as he intended, before the fall in Eden.'),(183,'Verstappen@shaw.ca',747,1323802521,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jenken\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n\"as it was in the beginning is now and will be forever.\"  Humanity (being created) does not controll the creator. If he was controllable, that would be a god I would\'ve t want to believe in.  What we have morphed into does not translate into what god now accepts. \r\n\r\nRegarding the word \"marriage\" being biblical. Many concepts we believe to be truthful, accepted by society and happen to be biblical at the same time are not necessarily spelled out in the bible.'),(184,'r-a-s@cox.net',748,1323805999,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ruth Schmid\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJonathan, for some reason I had always heard (or percieved, even taught), that because God is holy, sin separates us from him and he can\'t have relationship with us until we accept Christ as our Savior and mediator to him, thus covering us with Jesus\' righteousness which then allows us to be included in the family of God and receive eternal life, and be intimate with him. So are you saying that it is really because of our shame over sin that we are separated from him? Not because he is holy? Shame does definitely separate us from God and each other.\r\nThese might seem like rambling thoughts . . . and maybe they are. : )\r\nI guess I am still learning about his grace.  I like your perspective, that God showed up immediately after Adam and Eve sinned, to restore.\r\nI too have studied (a little) other religions and what stands out to me, is God\'s grace reaching out to us, not us trying to reach or work our way to something. \r\nWhat was it about Paul and so many early Christians who suffered persecution for their faith? Did they suffer because they took a firm stand about the good news of Jesus? Not that we try to incite others\' anger over our beliefs, but I wonder if respecting other religions can cross the line to compromising the gospel. There must be a fine line somewhere.?'),(185,'cdgoble@gmail.com',749,1323807841,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Clark Goble\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYou are so correct Joy. I was trying to put into words just today how God\'s love and grace in my life has instilled in me the desire to extend that love and grace to other people. It is that same love and grace that Christians should attempt to imitate in their own lives. \r\n\r\nLike you, I am very grateful! \r\n\r\nClark'),(186,'jb@thriven.org',750,1323808687,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nRuth, I wrote an entire book on debunking that myth (that God is defined by our actions and can\'t be in the presence of sin).  The problem is sin, but not in the way you\'ve probably heard. It is about shame and losing site of God\'s original judgment of good.\r\n\r\nhttp://www.amazon.com/Discovering-God-Imagination-Jonathan-Brink/dp/0615513956\r\n\r\nWhat I find liberating is beginning with God\'s original reality in creation, that we are all human beings created in the image of God.  Grace is always there because it\'s within the fabric of creation.  So it allows me to see with love, in spite of what someone believes.'),(187,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',751,1323818161,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nRuth, I\'m so glad this encouraged you; that was my hope in writing it. I\'ll pray the Lord will give you boldness and wisdom in rising up in your marriage, your church, to fulfill your destiny.'),(188,'hillary@hillarymcfarland.com',752,1323840178,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Hillary\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBeautiful article. I love how the Lord moves His people. I loved your last statement and I also wonder about it. Do you think it is important to redefine gender roles? A role is a part that is played. In my own life and thinking I\'m coming to the understanding that if we live organically, being transformed by the renewing of our minds and walking in the spirit, we will do or be whatever it is the Lord wills. I just worry that if we redefine a role, we will effectively just re-shape the fence that is already around us. Maybe we can do away with roles and just be what God calls each of us to be. I don\'t know...these are just very raw thoughts. \r\n\r\n<i>Marriages cannot function properly without both spouses operating in their innate strengths—spiritual or otherwise.</i> Amen! Keep writing and doing this amazing work.'),(189,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',753,1323840468,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHillary, I have <em>never</em> looked at \"roles\" in the way you described. I think your analysis--raw, but incredibly lucid--is brilliant and on-point: \"Maybe we can do away with roles and just be what God calls each of us to be.\" Come, Lord Jesus, come. \n\nThank you for your thoughts and encouragement. Indeed, the Lord is moving globally to cause His daughters to rise up and prophesy.'),(190,'kristenrosser@hotmail.com',754,1323914834,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Kristen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is a lovely article, and so true.  Consider one question, though:  Given that Paul\'s words in Eph. 5:21 &amp; following were spoken originally to men who were already in authority in their homes by the law of the land, and given that Paul never once told men to \"lead\" their wives, but rather to act as Christ did when He laid down His high position in order to raise the church up to be glorious-- what if the Holy Spirit, through Paul, were actually leading Christians AWAY from \"because he is the man, that makes him the leader\" as a paradigm?  What if the Holy Spirit were leading those first-century marriages towards a Kingdom mentality that \"there is not male and female, for you are all one in Christ\" according to Gal 3:28?  In that case, if we continue to follow the leading of the Spirit, then both the husband and the wife can be co-spiritual leaders of their homes, leading the family side by side, each in  his or her own area of strength-- in mutual submission according to Eph. 5:21.  I\'d urge you and your husband to give this serious consideration-- that the Kingdom of God is not about someone always getting to be the leader just because he\'s male.  My husband and I are trying it, and it works!'),(191,'reneeronika@hotmail.com',755,1323922572,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Renee Ronika Klug\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nKristen, you write: \"if we continue to follow the leading of the Spirit, then both the husband and the wife can be co-spiritual leaders of their homes, leading the family side by side, each in his or her own area of strength– in mutual submission according to Eph. 5:21.\" \n\nThis idea is the thesis of my essay. My husband and I <em>are</em> doing this, and it\'s working. \n\nI\'m not sure how the miscommunication occurred, but I appreciate your contribution of the Ephesians passage and the idea of Christ initiating/ordaining a new paradigm. Yes, yes, yes, indeed.'),(192,'aleikenberry@yahoo.com',756,1323960049,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Austin\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI\'d like to bring up a different, but related point.\r\n\r\nYou started this off with a quote by Michelle Bachman and the political environment in which the discussion of \"Gay\" Marriage that revolves in that sphere (or marriage equality, I get the point). I\'d like to question why we put marriage in the civil sphere at all? It seems to me that the most effective response to the marriage debate is to look at the history of marriage. It seems to me that institutionalizing marriage has caused many more problems than it solves. Going back to the institution of the Church of England, the interracial marriage debate in the last century in the US, and now the marriage equality debate, it seems that the debate around the legalization or the legal institution of marriage has been very damaging. Granted, with the foundation of the Church of England, there was more going into it than merely the Pope\'s refusal to annul Henry\'s marriage, but that was a major point. Also, it was a religious institution that was doing this, but primarily for political reasons (he was being held by the Holy Roman Emporer, uncle to Catharine - Henry\'s first wife).\r\n\r\nRegardless, it seems completely inappropriate to me that our politicians are setting the agenda on an instution that was founded in the religious arena. Why are we resorting to political means to authorize marriage of any type. It seems to me, that for those of us who view marriage as primarily a religious institution should be boldly declaring that the government has no authority to define/restrict/promote/whatever marriage. That the Church is the only appropriate institution to define it, and thereby, that the religious institution of marriage is protected by the religious institution of the Church.\r\n\r\nIf the government views long-term, stable relationships as healthy and beneficial to the community, then let them create a legal institution that they can protect and define, just don\'t call it marriage - the term itself is and has always been too laden for politics. \r\n\r\nI am regularly frustrated that this is primarily a political debate. Especially because it usually turns to religious issues (as can be shown in the comment string).'),(193,'kristenrosser@hotmail.com',757,1323984566,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Kristen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nRenee, I\'m so glad to hear it!  I think the place where the miscommunication happened was where you said this:\r\n\r\n\"Since we trust each other in these abilities, Greg as the \'spiritual leader\' of our family is not burdened down by religious expectation to be perfect in single handedly making decisions for our family.\"\r\n\r\nI saw that you put \"spiritual leader\" in quotes, but it still looked to me like you were saying Greg was THE spiritual leader of your family-- so I thought you were saying that you were giving yourself more latitude to give him input, but the buck still stopped with him.  I\'m glad that you consider yourselves to both be the family\'s spiritual leaders.'),(194,'williamawalkeriii@gmail.com',758,1323993610,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bill Walker\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nKinda cool that this got posted on the same day:\r\n\r\nhttp://www.sojo.net/blogs/2011/12/15/real-war-christmas-fox-news'),(195,'levitt.mike@gmail.com',760,1324143238,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Michael Levitt\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nPraying that your heart is fully open to what God has in store.  Forgiveness gives you freedom.'),(196,'rblazn1@live.com',759,1324143939,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Roger\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBill, I\'m not sure why you say you are \"still waiting for atonement\". To me, that occurred the moment I asked Jesus for forgiveness and made him the Lord of my life. That restored the broken relationship between myself and God. :)'),(197,'rblazn1@live.com',759,1324143939,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Roger\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBill, I\'m not sure why you say you are \"still waiting for atonement\". To me, that occurred the moment I asked Jesus for forgiveness and made him the Lord of my life. That restored the broken relationship between myself and God. :)'),(198,'christian@homebrewedtheology.com',761,1324143940,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Christian Salafia\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks Michael.\r\n\r\nI\'ve come to forgiveness on a lot of the things I held against my ex over the years, but with the recent developments I\'ve discovered I still have a long way to go.'),(199,'christian@homebrewedtheology.com',761,1324143940,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Christian Salafia\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks Michael.\r\n\r\nI\'ve come to forgiveness on a lot of the things I held against my ex over the years, but with the recent developments I\'ve discovered I still have a long way to go.'),(200,'wayne@rumsby.ca',763,1324146075,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi wayne rumsby\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBeautiful, honest and vulnerable. \r\n\r\nI think of forgiveness as a place, and I must choose to go there. I must leave the conflict and go to that place. I must put down my weapon and climb that hill. I\'ve done that many times more than necessary, simply because I keep returning to the conflict. I\'ve learned that it takes more than one trip up that hill to be ready for redemption. I think of redemption as a time rather than a place. I go to forgiveness and wait there for redemption.\r\n\r\nI\'m puzzled over your closing question though, is there a word missing?'),(201,'williamawalkeriii@gmail.com',762,1324146076,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bill Walker\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is the comment I would expect someone to bring.  Thanks, Roger.  I\'m not necessarily disagreeing with you here.  The point I\'m trying to make is not that atonement is unaccessible, historically speaking.  In faith as Christians we believe it is.  What I\'m concerned about is the extent to which, especially during Christmas and Easter, we rush to it and miss out on important dimensions other than the one you\'re speaking of.  Do we give due considering to the suffering that we cause others?  Do we recognize the power in Christ\'s experience of suffering with the subjugated peoples of the world?  Do we have a social sense of salvation, a historical sense, rather than merely an eschatological, personal sense?  In other words, I\'m saying we can\'t only speak of atonement as something in the past.  It must be relived, renewed, and re-waited-for in order for us not to get complacent and downplay the prophetic.  We must preserve the \"not yet\" as much as the \"already.\"  This aspect of advent functions as a kind of theodicy even - maybe not for everyone, but for those whose lives have been robbed from them or overwhelmed by injustice, I think it definitely does.'),(202,'melofutbol@hotmail.com',765,1324224223,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi A.j\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nwow Christian thank for this open and honest post.\r\n\r\nYou\'ve made me ask the question(perhaps,again): What role does Redemption play in Forgiveness?\r\n\r\nMy immediate thought is that things are always in a process of being redeemed and little steps of forgiveness through understanding help the wounds to heal, mend and be redeemed?\r\n\r\nI\'d love to read some of your further thoughts.'),(203,'christian@homebrewedtheology.com',766,1324267333,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Christian Salafia\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHi Wayne, thanks for taking the time to comment.\n\nI like the way you think of forgiveness as a place you must go over and over, putting your weapons down to make the trip.  That\'s pretty cool.\n\nNo, there isn\'t a word missing.  The question was a challenge to think of how we sometimes hold someone else\'s chance for redemption hostage because we cannot forgive them.  Although forgiveness is more for the forgiver than the forgiven, it plays a role in another\'s redemption.  Think of it this way, someone who has hurt us wants to \'make it up\' to us, to redeem themselves, and if there\'s no forgiveness, we hold them hostage, binding them on earth, and they may think \"why bother\" and not pursue redemption.  That\'s was the challenge, and is my challenge to this day with my ex-wife.'),(204,'christian@homebrewedtheology.com',767,1324267797,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Christian Salafia\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks AJ,\n\nI think they\'re all interconnected, redemption, forgiveness, and even confession and repentance, yet they\'re not dependent on each other.  They all play together, like instruments in a symphony.\n\nI think, and I\'m taking a stab in the dark here, that redemption doesn\'t play as much in our forgiving someone as much as it may play in them forgiving themselves.  Our forgiving them, even just a little, can show them that redemption and grace are possible, and sometimes that little spark of hope is all that stands between life and death and can set them on the path towards forgiving themselves.\n\nI believe, and sometimes learning this lesson is more difficult than I like, that, like you, redemption is more in the process, the path, than in the destination.'),(205,'wayne@rumsby.ca',768,1324270824,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi wayne rumsby\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAh, now that I read the closing question again it makes total sense. Perhaps what is missing is an emphatic pause, a simple coma after we. I was reading it like a question that seemed to be asking, Who are we holding redemption for? Details.'),(206,'Pastor@palocristipres.org',769,1324315123,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Debra avery\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks for being willing to look at redemption in an up close and personal way.  You are so right. At a great distance, redemption is a wonderful thing. When it is possible for those who hurt us (and it is), the journey through grief,  forgiveness, acceptance, and the frightening awareness that we risk more pain when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable requires a great deal of courage and tenacity.  I look forward to seeing how you journey through this redeeming moment.'),(207,'christian@homebrewedtheology.com',770,1324317417,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Christian Salafia\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks Deb.\n\nI think that\'s the thing.  It\'s easy to talk Jesus, but walking Jesus can really suck sometimes.  It\'s not all rainbows and unicorns, but often entails struggles, pain, and loss.  But perhaps that\'s the point of the incarnation.  Jesus endured everything the world could throw at him, and he remained grace-filled and forgiving to the end.  Perhaps there\'s a lesson in there somewhere. :-)\n\nIt will be interesting to travel this road.  The girls are dealing with the emotional uproar that usually accompanies a major upheaval like this.  I fully expected it, but that hasn\'t made it any easier.  Hally is having a more difficult time because the one time she\'s visited, she didn\'t say what she wanted to and now she\'s dealing with regret.  She\'s beating herself up over not speaking up, and it\'s hard, as a parent, to see her going through that.  Ashlyn bought her mom a present for Christmas because she felt bad about her Mom not having any, so they\'ll get a chance to visit this week.  It\'ll be interesting to see what Hally does with a second opportunity.'),(208,'jb@thriven.org',771,1324406151,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIt\'s kind of sad to me that for some, the meaning of Christianity is based on how good it can get, when Jesus led his followers to the cross.  Pain and suffering is an intimate part of what it means to follow.'),(209,'rayrayc17@live.com',772,1324406481,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMy problem isn\'t with Tebow, it\'s with some of the Christian population\'s  overly high expectations of him. I don\'t think he\'s in it for the same reasons they think he is.\r\n\r\nThat being said, I heard an interview with Kurt Warner, former QB of the St. Louis Rams the other day. He said something along the lines of, \"Faith isn\'t a jersey you can just take off.\" I really liked that.'),(210,'hornmike@sbcglobal.net',773,1324407965,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Mike H.\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI love your last sentence the best. As an evangelical-emergent-postmodern-progressive, we need to move off old paradigms that are built around what separates us and \"make room\" for each other. Tim Tebow, Kurt Warner, and Aaron Rogers all have a personal faith in God but each expresses it differently. I love the diversity!'),(211,'christian@homebrewedtheology.com',774,1324408047,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Christian Salafia\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI couldn\'t agree more.  Some of the greatest growth in my faith has come from moments/periods of immense pain and suffering.'),(212,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',775,1324408452,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMichael, thank you SO MUCH for both your observations and your detailed study of Scripture.  Jesus found his true believers at parties with whores, low-class blue-collar fisherman, and hated society-rejects like tax collectors.  Why?  Because they already knew they were screwed up, admitted they were needy and sick, and wanted desperately to experience the finest brew in life.  \r\n\r\nI think it didn\'t matter to them if it was through wine (a temporary fix), society, God\'s acceptance, or whatever made them feel their life mattered.  Just like me, what made the difference was this radically out-of-the-box man who told them God wanted them just as they were, and promised to lead them into positive places they couldn\'t achieve by themselves.\r\n\r\nI\'m gratified you reconize this, celebrate this, and publically own this as the reason the true God bothered to come here as a mere mortal and let us know that not only is the God who created us pleased with us just as we are, but He/She wants to lead us into the growth and healing of abundant life.\r\n\r\nThank you for your article.  Thank you for expressing yourself, no matter what anyone else thinks.'),(213,'marni@relevantbrokenness.com',776,1324410284,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marni Arnold\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHi Alise!\r\n\r\nThis is a great write up...I do have to state that I admire your writing. I have since we have connected. However, there is a divide between us on this issue. I once held, within myself for many years, a condoning of same sex marriage - until I really started to see what God had to say about it through His Word. And considering such, I now find myself not able to condone this lifestyle in my heart.\r\n\r\nBoiled down...no matter how anyone tries to breakdown scripture to make it sound all inclusive...homosexuality is a sin. It\'s no greater a sin than any other laid out in scripture, but nevertheless is it still a sin. And considering this, my heart can\'t find it\'s way to condone it...therefore, I cannot condone marriage between two people of the same sex.\r\n\r\nWhile I love and respect everyone, I can\'t condone or tolerate lifestyles that are outwardly sinful. And when asked on a ballot if I support it or not, I will make my mark in a lack of support because I know how God feels about this lifestyle - and I can\'t turn my heart away from God on a heart issue I know he outwardly opposes Himself. This battle can\'t truly be fought in a courtroom or government body (based on the votes of the majority of the citizens who cast their votes), it can only be fought at the feet of God by approaching His throne on our knees in prayer for all our sins (homosexuality included)...therefore, leaving what we truly cannot conquer in His hands.\r\n\r\nUntil the day comes when the truth is revealed for all of us to see with our own eyes, beyond the written word we are given today, I will love others and respect their choice to do as they will, but you better believe I am placing [even my own opinions] in His hands and praying for a change of heart for all mankind concerning the nature of sin and how it can only be fought on the battlefield of His grace.'),(214,'michaelwcamp@comcast.net',777,1324414573,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Michael Camp\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJoy, you\'re very welcome and thanks for your kind comments. Christ\'s \"come just as you are\" invitation gets lost because the church slowly transforms it into \"stay with us but make sure you abide by our codes of conduct and doctrine.\"'),(215,'travismamone83@gmail.com',778,1324425854,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Travis Mamone\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI\'m a Tebow fan, too, and it\'s great that he\'s a brother in Christ.  What I have an issue with is when American Christians use Tebow as an apologetic tool.  I like to think that the God of the Universe has a lot more on His mind than American football.'),(216,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',779,1324430089,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nUnfortunately, there are too many churches whose policy is \"don\'t even bother attending unless you abide by our codes of conduct and doctrine.  Be like us, or don\'t enter, or at least hide behind a false facade.\"  I\'m a preacher\'s kid and grew up in a few churches like that.  At the time, I didn\'t know any better and thought that was \"normal and right\".  When churches started excluding me as a young adult, I came to understand how Country Club and unlike Jesus that viewpoint is.\r\n\r\nMakes me think of how Paul chewed out Peter for such discrimination.  Some of the early churches were very judgmental about who could be considered a Christian.  The same issue is still going on today.  But thanks be to God for Jesus-followers who welcome \"whosoever will\" because such grace was extended to them.  I\'m a Christian today because of a life-changing encounter with God through a personal relationship, not religion.  My heart\'s desire is to help some other wanderers find their way home to such an amazing God.'),(217,'marni@relevantbrokenness.com',780,1324477262,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marni Arnold\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nKen,  while what you state is truth...the truth of it still is He was also still very human. This is the very reason it is nearly incomprehensible for the human mind to embrace a complete understanding of how He can be both God and human. But the truth is...directly revealed in scripture...He was indeed both. Therefore, while still God, Christ was born into a Jewish family, raised on Jewish traditions and He honored  them. It isn\'t distinctly worded in scripture, but looking underneath the layers of Christ\'s actions...it\'s evident His embrace of the Jewish life into His human side was multi-fold. But mainly it was to honor the covenant that God made with Abraham, Issac and Jacob...and to have Him relate to humans so they knew God desired relationship with them. There is always reason for why God does what He does...and He will always reveal His ways in scripture...maybe not word for word, but it will be revealed in what He teaches, how He teaches and how He related to His children while walking this earth.\r\n\r\nSo Jonathan definitely speaks of truth when he states what he does concerning Jesus being highly informed by Judaism. It is all encompassing concerning the God-Man...Christ.'),(218,'levitt.mike@gmail.com',781,1324493311,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Michael Levitt\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBeautiful post.  Have a blessed Christmas!'),(219,'tazfan1822@yahoo.com',782,1324587522,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Debby Engelbert\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nNice writing Joy.  Enjoyed it.'),(220,'jb@thriven.org',784,1324599579,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nUnfortunately i think we make sense of our own reality by separation.  It\'s easy to want to clarify what is not, rather than what is.  But love calls us to engage rather than push away.'),(221,'jb@thriven.org',785,1324599580,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nDo you think we\'d be talking about him if he didn\'t wear his faith on his sleeve?'),(222,'jb@thriven.org',783,1324599580,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWhat do you think Warner meant by that comment?'),(223,'judykday@comcast.net',787,1324611579,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Judy Day\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJoy, this is all so true. I just read an article this morning that Generation E people are adults that still rely on their parents because they were never allowed to fail.  One of the hardest things I ever did was made my daughter leave our home when she wasn\'t following simple rules of the house.  She did actually live in her car at one time. Once she decided to get her life together (about the age of 30), it\'s been all uphill! She graduated number 1 in her dental hygiene class. She and I are best friends today and she says it\'s because I didn\'t rescue her every time she got in trouble.  She still is not a Jesus follower, but all I can do is lead by example.'),(224,'thirsty40@gmail.com',786,1324611757,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Laura\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI love your last line and hope with you that one day this will no longer be an issue that divides us as the body of Christ.  Thank you for having the courage to speak out.'),(225,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',789,1324612769,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you, Debby.'),(226,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',788,1324612770,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI really appreciate your comment, Judy.  I\'m a Baby Boomer, and I had kids in Junior High before my parents finally stopped rescuing me.  Forstalling the pain of learning to take care of yourself and be responsible as an adult doesn\'t make the process any easier when the time actually comes.  I\'m trusting God to take good care of my son, no matter how that looks.  We\'ve helped him at times in the past, but told him last week that he\'s on his own now.  Now I get to practice a lot of Uncensored Prayer!'),(227,'daisydaisychick@yahoo.com',791,1324750287,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Daisy Rain Martin\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you, Cody, for putting into words all the sentiments that I seem to stumble through every day of the year. &lt;3 Daisy Rain'),(228,'staucody72@gmail.com',792,1324750647,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Cody Stauffer\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nDaisy, I appreciate your comments, but I know you well enough to know you have a great way with your words yourself! Merry Christmas and can you believe it\'s almost 2012?'),(229,'ob1mikey@hotmail.com',793,1324796701,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Michael Loyer\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThough a little late in this discussion, I hope to get a response. I too, had always thought that Jesus was interpreting himself as the Master in this parable. Yet the master\'s principles do not coincide with teachings from the bible that it is by faith not works that we are saved. It its interesting to note that Dave had derived at the interpretations that the key teaching here has something to do with slavery. We should take account that the parable in this teaching is meant to be isolated in its own context. But rather, take it as a series of parables in which Jesus describes the state of the world when he brings upon the kingdom of heaven, which the day of his return. He asks us to be ready for we will not know the day or the hour. And he goes on with how we must always be prepared like the virgins who woke up and trimmed their lamps. The parable of the talents then goes on to describe a master. The key points as Dave describes, is a master who harvests where he has not sown and gathers where he does not scatter seed. This is contradictory to Jesus for he is our shepherd and he is the one that scatters the seeds. The second thing to note about the Parable of the talents is that the master in question required the unfaithful servant to deposit his money with the bankers if here were not to do something with it himself so that the master may collect, at the very least interest, in his talent. Be reminded that a \"talent\" in those times was a calculated sum of money. Correct me if I am wrong, but a talent is 75lbs of silver. In the Old testament, it is said many times that it is unlawful to collect interest/usury upon your brother. Only a wicked man multiplies his wealth by employing servants to expand his kingdom by reaping his servants harvest without having have lifted a finger himself. And it is an even more wicked man for punishing a servant for giving him no return on something he still owns in full. That to me is has the very elements of slavery in which David Henson has touched upon.'),(230,'melofutbol@hotmail.com',794,1324923122,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi A.j\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBecause you didn\'t close your letter with a name I\'ll assume your name is ironically, Joy.\r\nAs someone who has struggled with depression or sometimes a lack of happiness, perhaps, you\'d allow me to share my \'answers\' so far? Perhaps, the \'how\' could be something as simple as identifying meaning behind your word choice and/or a transition in vocabulary (it works for me sometimes)? I\'ve found doubt or unknowing a necessary ingredient of any journey i\'m willing to fully experience. I\'ve found doubt or mystery essential and inherent in a life of following God. I\'ve found there is a slight but important difference between Doubt and Fear. I\'ve found Faith less about Knowing or having Answers and more about Trusting and discovering Beauty. I\'ve found when I used the word Doubt when I really mean Fear i\'m not Trusting and I lose Joy. \r\n     _Sincerely,\r\n                   A.j\r\n\r\np.s. I look forward to hearing your further thoughts.'),(231,'dan.mcmonagle@comcast.net',796,1324950593,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi dan mcm\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHey Joy… Great post. \r\nI’m a ‘doubter’ myself in regards to a number of issues, so I can definitely relate to feeling like an outsider.  Sometimes, I keep the doubts to myself in order to fit in, other times I don’t bother saying anything because I feel I can’t adequately explain my viewpoint. \r\nThe thing that helped me get past some of my doubts, those that I considered the most important to resolve, came about when I read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.  Reading Lewis taught me two primary things: 1) it was ok to have doubts and questions, to have beliefs that didn’t toe the line with the status quo on every issue, and 2) that the resurrection of Jesus was historically verifiable based on logical evidence (eg, willingness of eyewitnesses to die rather than deny the resurrection – if you link to my blog here, you’ll find my post on that.)  Basically, my belief in the resurrection is my ‘tether’ – no matter how far outside I wander on those doubting tangents (and I still do), I’ve got a lifeline that keeps me attached to the Body as a whole, and I find reassurance in that. \r\nI will do my best to never “scold, rebuke or pound on” anyone for having doubts because, truth be told, I think it’s critical to maintain some level of doubt if we are to keep our faith fresh and vibrant.  If everything is easy, comfortable, with no questions, are we really living by faith, or just accepting the status quo? When we struggle with doubts, when we question our beliefs because they don’t fit in, but we still do our best to follow Jesus, it’s then that I think we are truly walking in faith.  You might think that you are “out there”, Joy, but the truth is you are a woman of great faith, even when it doesn’t feel like it.'),(232,'travismamone83@gmail.com',798,1324999891,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Travis Mamone\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nGreat article, Joy!  I no longer want in.  Being on the outside of American evangelicalism gives you a much better view of God.  I still hang out with people on the inside, though.'),(233,'rainbowfluff@aol.com',797,1325001693,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Lily\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI wish I could tell you the key to getting in, but I do not seem to have it either.  It seems to me, though, that those who struggle and doubt have a more authentic and deeper faith walk because at the end of the day, we still choose Jesus despite all the challenges and obstacles.  I also believe that you will one day find all the answers that you seek.  I just cannot tell you when.'),(234,'bohemianbowmans@gmail.com',799,1325003155,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jessica\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\n&lt;3'),(235,'ray.hollenbach@gmail.com',800,1325005141,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Hollenbach\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHenri Nouwen speculated whether the Lord\'s phrase, \"You of Little Faith\" wasn\'t actually a kind of endearing nickname, more like, \"Oh, You Little-Faiths!\" We\'ve never heard the tone in His voice as he said those words, but I\'ll bet it was playful. How often we miss the plain fact that Jesus was followed not by the certain, but by the hungry. Hunger trumps certainty.\r\n\r\nI suspect we do not need \"directions, a map, the secret word, a key, the keypad code\" or a \"something\" of any kind. We need a Someone to walk with us. Grace to you, and Peace.'),(236,'dan.mcmonagle@comcast.net',795,1325016194,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi dan mcm\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHey Joy....   Great post.  \r\n\r\nI\'m a doubter too on a lot of things and can definitely relate to that feeling of being on the outside you\'re describing. My survival technique for a lot of years was to keep quiet about that which I\'m doubtful on to maintain the appearance of being \"In here\" with everyone else. But lately I\'m feeling a little more comfortable sharing my doubts with those around me, particularly since the things where I have my doubts just might actually be areas where the church doesn\'t get it right.... maybe us doubters are actually right about some things, you know?\r\n\r\nWhat has helped me, my \"how\", was to find one thing that anchored my faith, and that one thing was the resurrection.  I read Mere Christianity about 25 years ago when I was really struggling with doubts, and reading Lewis made me realize two things - 1) it was ok to have doubts and uncertainty on certain issues, and 2) that the resurrection was a real, historical event.  That belief in the resurrection (I gave the reasons in my blog) is my tether to the \"in here\".  \r\n\r\nDon\'t ever stop doubting re: those things that should be doubted.  The truth is, there are many of us that appear to be \"outside\" that are truly \"in here\", and there are many that think they are \"in here\" that are outside. Sheep.... goats....   They all say \"baa... baa...\" but only the shepherd can truly distinguish which is which.'),(237,'joseph.pusateri@gmail.com',802,1325018149,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joseph Pusateri\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nRight on.'),(238,'hornmike@sbcglobal.net',803,1325021922,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi M. Horn\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI think Barna\'s research is quite compelling.  I also believe its \"all of the above\", and not so simplistic as people might imagine.  I think millenials are enigmatic and I\'m pretty confident that, after working with teens, twenty\'s and thirty\'s for the last 3 decades, young people are particularly searching for authentic \"connection\", vertically and horizontally.  I think liberals and conservatives both tend to focus on peripheral/secondary issues.  \"The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing\", and I think the main thing is the longing for deep intimate connection with the Godhead, and to be loved unconditionally by people.   Isaiah 61 also manifests the burning desire in every heart to see people experience freedom on a personal and individual level, as well as the transformation of society that includes social justice issues.  Thanks for stimulating an important conversation.'),(239,'bobpear@bendcable.com',804,1325027811,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bob Pearson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAsking a community like a church to change its core beliefs is a waste of time. They will not change.  Trying to work within the existing cultural and theological structure is pointless, at least 90% of the time, of course there are exceptions. Most churches that make a wide shift normally just split, thus so many sects of Christianity in the country.\r\nWhat we need are new examples of whole scale change and not just tweeking.  It is time to invest in new experiments in being followers of Christ, not just Sunday gatherings for various styles of worship, but places to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick and live/love out the gospel in actions not just in proclamations and doctrine.  Just do Jesus I guess would be a good rallying cry.'),(240,'tbh2@cornell.edu',805,1325033534,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Frida\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThese analyses always leave me cold because.  .  . guess what?  One can become a liberal democrat without needing a church membership. You can volunteer,  and Occupy,  and be a good person who cares about the poor and favors gay marriage-- without Jesus. \r\n\r\nLots of people say they like what Jesus said, and they like authentic Christians okay. But  maybe they don\'t believe in God, or  don\'t think Jesus is really all that more compelling than the drum circle or the Sunday Times. \r\n\r\nThe liberal church acts like it is all just a big musunderstanding, and if only young people knew how Marcus-Borgy, MoveOn.org-y we were, they\'d love us.  They\'d come back. But maybe they just wouldn\'t hate us so much,  though they wouldn\'t find us all that compelling either. So go ahead and hang the rainbow flags outside your church -- just don\'t think young people are going to come flying in. \r\n\r\nChurches need to face the truth: young people are just not that into us.'),(241,'sarahrandall@hotmail.com',806,1325039471,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Sarah SSM\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThis is what I call a real relationship.  And this is a powerful story.  Thank you for sharing it.  I hope you don\'t mind if I link to it on my blog?  I think I\'ll want to come back and reread this later for a reminder, and  I am definitely putting your book on my wish list.'),(242,'joyleewilson@gmail.com',809,1325039600,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Wilson\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nCertainly you can link this to your blog.  I\'m glad you have my book on your wish list.  You can get it on Amazon and also Barnes&amp;Nobles.com.  Thank you for your kind comment.'),(243,'patrickometry@gmail.com',810,1325047422,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Patrick Yaeger\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI\'ve been to many churches in my life. The church I remember most fondly was the First Presbyterian Church (http://www.fpcnyc.org/) in NYC in the late 90\'s. I was a paid chorister there. It was a big beautiful old stone church with a long history and an incredible music program, whose Scottish pastor gave inspiring intelligent sermons advocating for the poor and outcast. I was in my twenties and fully welcomed there. First Church in New York was a revelation to me for I had been to various churches in my teens (the 80\'s) here in Kentucky but recoiled at the hateful ignorant lies being spread by these churches about gay people like me and the dumb pseudo-religious arguments being passed around by these churches about basic fundamental rock solid facts of science, like evolution - the basis of modern biology. My intelligence was insulted as was my sense of fairness and what was moral and right. I think something like that is happening now for more and more young people, generally.'),(244,'arb06@alum.dartmouth.org',808,1325100990,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Arbie\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nP.S. I also wanted to mention that huge red flags should go up any time someone says they KNOW what God thinks or how he feels about certain things, especially when it comes to making judgments about human behavior.'),(245,'arb06@alum.dartmouth.org',807,1325100991,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Arbie\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nPlease tell me that someone will kindly respond to Marni and wiskers.  I am a former evangelical Christian, now an atheist, but support more progressive/open-minded forms of Christianity.  I would love to hear the Bible\'s explanation for exactly WHY homosexuality is allegedly sinful.  After all, if God exists and the Bible is his word, and science and logic and regard for fellow human beings do not contradict these facts, then one would think there would be a good explanation for why two consenting adults who mutually love and commit themselves to one another is sinful.  I\'m sorry, but there just aren\'t any explanations that cut it.  \r\n\r\nThe question about child-rearing is a slightly different matter, apart from morality, but still an inadequate reason to keep gay and lesbian folks from being able to marry.  People who are attracted to the opposite sex and want to have kids will continue to do so, even if marriage equality is implemented.  Given the high heterosexual divorce rate, and the massive problems with child abuse, poverty, and other problems that strike gay and straight households alike, wouldn\'t you say that the most important thing would be for a child to have two parents, if possible, who can assist one another with raising the child, and teach him/her how to cope, adapt, thrive and succeed in this difficult world?  Gay and lesbian couples often adopt children whose (straight) biological parents are unable or unwilling to raise them to properly.  On whose side is the moral shortcoming in this scenario?'),(246,'Wendy@embracerichmond.org',811,1325185120,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Weny McCaig\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nAs the mother of 3 teens, 18, 16, and 13, I have seen my girls respond to these exact issue. My eldest has rejected the institutional forms of the church because of the hateful treatment of the GLBT community. My middle daughter said she can\'t be a part of anything that would require her to ignore scientific facts like evolution and my youngest is just starting to here and understand the conservative views on homosexuality and can\'t reconcile that with the way we raised her.  As a minister working in the urban context this is exceptionally hard for me to watch.  My kids see me and my husband as anomalies on the fringe of the tradition and I fear they will never give any church a chance.   They are all compassionate and all dedicated to living like Jesus.  I pray for new wine skins for this generation that truly loves like Jesus.'),(247,'dlpenw01@gmail.com',812,1325188501,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi drdlpenwell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you all for your thoughtful engagement.  I appreciate your ideas, and I offer my sadness to those who have been witnesses to or recipients of, what I take to be, the church\'s misplaced attention.  There are a range of comments here, so let me respond with some broad observations. \r\n\r\n First, I take Frida\'s critique seriously about the fact that what I\'m proposing could easily be taken for a baptized version of liberal/progressive politics.  It\'s easy to think that the means (partisan politics) are the ends (faithfulness to Jesus).  However, what I\'m suggesting is not that churches become more \"Democratic\" in order to appeal to young people; in fact, just the opposite--churches need to worry about aligning themselves with Jesus, rather than the correct political programs.  If those programs are congruent with the aims of the gospel, using them thoughtfully is defensible.  It\'s a subtle distinction, but on which my argument turns.\r\n\r\nAs to whether doing all the right stuff (Marcus-Borgy, MoveOn.org-y) will \"work\" or not in bringing young people back isn\'t my primary point (some will come back, some won\'t--for a variety of reasons that often don\'t have much to do with the church--which is my sympathetic response to Wendy, since I have a teen going through the same stuff).  My point is that churches should be fundamentally concerned with being faithful--and the rest will take care of itself (or not); but that\'s really God\'s area of responsibility.  Congregations need to act like Jesus not because it\'s successful, but because it\'s right.\r\n\r\nSecond, as to Bob\'s point about the kind of change that is necessary, I\'m inclined to agree that the easiest way to accomplish this is through new manifestations, since congregational transformation is painstaking work.  However, I\'m being primarily descriptive here--which, I think, means that my concern has less to do with  faithfulness gets embodied than with  it gets embodied.  As Bob says, and as i say i the article, tweaking is a distraction.'),(248,'taara@portela.com',813,1325201609,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Taara\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYou said this, \"It is the practicing, the living, the embodying of everything good in a faith path that leads one to salvation (imho).\"\r\n\r\nHow can you earn your own salvation?'),(249,'joy@joyinthisjourney.com',814,1325256939,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi writingjoy\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI like how you introduce the idea of mystery into the dynamic of doubt, AJ. Mystery and beauty and loving the person of Jesus are things I am learning to embrace tightly, whether or not I ever get any answers.'),(250,'joy@joyinthisjourney.com',815,1325257222,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Bennett\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nDan, I too have kept it to  myself or just shut my mouth because putting it into words didn\'t seem to make any sense. \n\nMere Christianity is one of those books I go back to every year or two. I use that same word picture too -- Jesus is my tether or my anchor, and I cling to Him when nothing else makes sense.'),(251,'joy@joyinthisjourney.com',816,1325258654,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Bennett\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nRay, I love the idea that \"little-faith\" is an endearing nickname. Interesting thoughts on hunger vs certainty -- seems like being certain would nullify hunger. And I agree with you -- I no longer think it\'s  a matter of codes or directions, it\'s about Jesus. He\'s who I cling to when the ground is shaky. I\'m learning to let the criticism of the certain roll off my back (though it still stings sometimes).'),(252,'joy@joyinthisjourney.com',817,1325258714,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Bennett\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI think I\'m standing in the doorway at this point, pondering the possibility of walking out.'),(253,'joy@joyinthisjourney.com',818,1325258787,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Joy Bennett\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYou know, I\'m growing to believe that it\'s more precious to me to be authentic than to be certain of answers. Jesus doesn\'t require me to have the answers, and I\'m not sure it\'s actually possible anyway.'),(254,'maguyton@gmail.com',819,1325264264,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Morgan\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHow about this? The cross is God making Himself vulnerable before us so we can be vulnerable before Him and each other. I think the source of all sin is self-justification. It\'s the epistemological (?) prison that we have to escape. Needing to be right about everything is what living in hell is. We escape it by stepping into the vulnerability of taking up our crosses to follow the Vulnerable One.'),(255,'jb@thriven.org',820,1325264422,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nMorgan, I share the epistemological prison idea, one that we have created.  And I like the vulnerability idea.  But I think it comes down to a single question.  Are we good or evil? Everything else is an extension of this one question, found in the tree of knowledge.  Why did God declare us good, when we are so capable of evil?  And the cross shows us that God thought we were worth it.'),(256,'csobalvarro@gmail.com',821,1325266641,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Cam\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHearily agree with the spirit of this. Well said. Reminds me of anothers statement I read, not sure who to attribute it to, \"whenever religion and politics mix, it\'s religion that looses.\"  I believe that\'s proven true here in the USA.  It kills me that the response of many in the mainstream evangelical church seems to be to either deny the problem, or blame it on the culture. I don\'t feel it\'s ever helpful to blame culture, because culture simply \"is.\" Accept it, learn to operate within it, seek to influence it, even confront it in pursuit of radical reformation, but don\'t blame it. I\'m not suggesting culture is always right, but to make it the scapegoat for your problems is simply not helpful.'),(257,'dlpenw01@gmail.com',822,1325267154,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi drdlpenwell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYour instinct to resist blaming culture <em>per se</em>, as you might guess, seems right to me.  Culture is too complex to \"blame.\"  Blaming or defending culture seems to me to be the equivalent of blaming the air for holding the pollution people pump into it or defending the make up of air for having the right constituents to support human life.'),(258,'csobalvarro@gmail.com',823,1325267734,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Cam\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nWhat a heartfelt and helpful piece. Thanks for expressing this so personally. I am one who, for no reason I feel I can take any credit for, has never really struggled with doubt, but I find myself surrounded by those who do. It\'s not that I always believed, I didn\'t come to faith until adulthood. But my unbelief came from lack of knowledge. When I heard the Gospel, I responded. I still had little knowledge, but rather than \"doubt\" I felt \"uniformed.\" If anything, I doubted myself. While I\'m grateful for my lack of doubt (because I don\'t know if I could handle it personally), I\'m also grateful for the doubters in my life. They spur me on. They also keep my humble for all the times I just don\'t have adequate answers. I am guilty of at times feeling like it\'s \"their fault\" for \"holding-on\" to doubt, and perhaps even \"cherishing it.\" So thank you for helping me see that. \r\nYet I do feel that there are subcultures in the the church where doubt it to some degree given honor it doesn\'t deserve, where those of us who don\'t struggle with it almost feel like we\'re being less than honest. To express doubt can sometimes be a used as a way of inflating ones own intellectualism. I also don\'t feel that\'s helpful, and at that point it\'s probably not even honest. I don\'t feel doubt is anything to be proud of. I ALSO don\'t think FAITH is anything to be proud of though.  Both are part of the experience of seeking and knowing God. In fact, I think a healthy community has both.'),(259,'marni@relevantbrokenness.com',824,1325303435,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Marni Arnold\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nArbie,\r\n\r\nI have but one sincere question for you...and please deeply study this question (and study the scriptures). Does God commend anywhere in scripture the man+man, or woman+woman relationship, in a sexually intimate manner...or does He condemn it?'),(260,'alise.d.wright@gmail.com',825,1325305322,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi AliseWrite\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI would suggest that it is simply not addressed. Reading through the Scriptures, it appears to me that the same sex sexual relationships that are condemned are those that are of an idolatrous nature (sex with prostitutes as a form of worship of false gods).\r\n\r\nComparing that to a loving, monogamous relationship between two people of the same sex simply makes no sense.\r\n\r\nRegardless, even if one finds that it is sinful, I cannot understand how that plays into extending the legal rights to committed same sex partners that are extended to non-Christian heterosexual couples. We recognize that marriage benefits should be an option to people regardless of their faith. So while you SAY that all sins are the same, this one is clearly worse because you suggest that there should be legal ramifications accompanying this one that do not apply to other sinful couples.'),(261,'arb06@alum.dartmouth.org',826,1325315328,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Arbie\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nExcellent response, Alise.  In ancient Greek, no word existed in their vocabulary that referred to our modern concept of \"homosexuality.\"  There are very few verses in the bible that even remotely try to speak to same-sex matters, and I would agree with Alise that what the biblical authors decried was, more precisely, sexual immorality--being sexually loose or, as Alise puts it, idolatrous, with whomever/whatever crosses one\'s path.  The Bible has lots more to say about \"sinful\" situations between men and women, ranging from lust to adultery to divorce, etc. (but no one today is seriously trying to criminalize these \"sins\").  Ancient cultures hadn\'t yet formed the concept of two consenting adults of the same sex who mutually loved and committed themselves to one another as married couples do today.\r\n\r\nBut like I said, I am an atheist (after having spent many years as a very sincere and well-meaning Christian).   I understand that I have strayed onto Christian turf by finding and commenting on this site, but if you could humor me for a moment: the fact of the matter is that appealing to the authority of the Bible means nothing to me, or to other people who view it as a collection of books written and compiled by fallible men.  If you really want to pull out a small, isolated handful of verses as support for labeling same-sex relationships as sinful, and you want the law to enforce those views on the rest of society, you will have to reach out further to find some kind of extra-biblical common ground with people who don\'t view the Bible as an authoritative voice on matters of public policy and 21st century concerns.\r\n\r\nI appreciate Alise\'s reply, because at least as a Christian, maybe her voice will carry beyond the reach of mine to engage her fellow believers in discussions like this.  As an outsider, my perspective is usually dismissed outright, with the rationale that I have been blinded by Satan and the lure of secular society.  But I think there is room for Christians to approach their own book of scripture with a more careful and critical eye, and come away with a deeper understanding that differs from traditional interpretations of the same text.  With the \"culture wars\" raging, I do think that many people simply see what they want to see (or what others have told them is there) when reading between the lines printed in the Bible.  Please, Christians who are more receptive to marriage equality and similar values:  please let your voices be heard, please keep engaging with your own communities to help move us all beyond injustice and backwards thinking.  As a non-believing outsider, I fear that my hands are tied.'),(262,'dannywickham@yahoo.es',828,1325449905,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi wiskers\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nHi there, \r\n\r\nThe whole debate hangs on what you personally believe in and adhere to. For some of us it is God´s Word, understood as the Bible and all that it has to say on any particular issue. \r\n\r\nIf you are a Bible believing Christian and want to personally live your life in accordance with God´s word and the light you receive from it, then it is pretty difficult to ignore the fact that nowehere are same sex relationships actually condoned. But there are a number of passages that do condemn such relationships. \r\n\r\nNow, as we are not living in a closed shop society like the Israelites did, we cannot compell our view on any collective or group if their base belief is not Bible based. That is obvious. We can only pray that more and more people will come to a saving knowledge and submission to God in His Word and live in the power of the Holy Spirit. Incidentally this is the power that \"empowers you\" to live a life that pleases God. You cannot even hope to win over sin if you are not filled with the Spirit. That is the key and the message. Living a christian life in your own human strength is absolutely useless AND VERY FRUSTRATING TO BOOT!. You have no power to sustain victory in your own strength. For that reason ALL sin can only be defeated by living constantly under the power of the Holy Spirit. And when you do you begin to discern God´s heart on all such matters and you begin to see things from God´s point of view in a clearer way. So I say to those who are calling themselves Christians and yet indulge in same sex relationships that this is because you lack the power to win over this particular weakness. So you have to try and find a reason that condones something you can´t change in your own power. The key then is to submit to the Holy Spirit, adore Him as you do the Father and the Son and tell Him you want His infilling to win over sin and to be made more like Jesus. \r\n\r\nI guess some of you will think I´m mad. Believe me, I know from personal experience about this and I know it is the heart of the Gospel and the heart of God´s victory over the sin we founder in. I don´t condem anyone, I encourage you towards victory and towards hearing God´s heart on these issues. But I have yet to see any heated Christian debate about the current world economic crisis and the inmense greed we have nurtured in our midst and allowed in our society go unchecked. Comparatively speaking the effects of greed have had a much wider damaging effect than the ethical debate about same sex partnerships. My main worry is that, like the abortion debate, Christians have lost the battle, we lost it in many other areas. We are losing the battle over sin generally. The ONLY way to win is Spirit filling. \r\n\r\nI hope to have helped here. If I haven´t or have offended anyone the offence is only because I hold very firm views, not from personal animosity towards any of you or what you believe or do.'),(263,'levitt.mike@gmail.com',829,1325459632,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Michael Levitt\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nSometimes it takes a simple event as a girl on a pogo stick, to get us out of our self-induced funk.\r\n\r\nMy prayer for 2012 is that we live more like that little girl.\r\n\r\nBlessings!'),(264,'kglethean@gmail.com',830,1325460609,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Kevin Gonzaga\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nBronwen,\r\n\r\nThanks for taking the time to post this article it definitely has been through provoking.  \r\n\r\nOn one hand I agree with a lot of what you say.  I think many world religions actually do espouse love as a high ideal.  I think followers of Jesus should strive to love other people, regardless of what world religions they claim. I have studies many major world religions, read various sacred scriptures of other religions, visited various worship centers and have always found parallels and connections with Jesus teachings or other teachings in the Bible.  I think someone can be a follower of Jesus and stay culturally Muslim or culturally Jewish, etc. (In other words I believe in things like the Insider Movement. http://biblicalmissiology.org/2011/03/20/the-insider-movement-a-brief-overview-and-analysis/) I have also encountered many Christians who worship a very weak God and feel the need to protect God. For example, I have been many times counseled to not question God.  As if God is scared of my questions. I find many practices of the Christian religion to be misguided to outright against the teachings of Jesus and am deeply troubled by this.\r\n\r\nAll that being said, I share many of the concerns A.J. and Marni have brought up and some other ones.  I\'ll try to touch on them in no real particular order. \r\n\r\nWhile some religious people might vehemently defend their God because they are insecure, there are many times in the scriptures where God takes actions to directly prove God is stronger than other gods.  For example, during the Exodus each of the plagues stepped on the domain of an Egyptian god.  Famously at Mt. Carmel Elijah challenged several hundred prophets of a false God and God showed up miraculously. So it appears sometimes God does show up other gods in \"power-contests.\" What do you make of these?\r\n\r\nThe best summation of your position is in your own words I think. \"The perspective I hold is that many ways/paths CAN lead to God. It doesn’t mean they do! It is the practicing, the living, the embodying of everything good in a faith path that leads one to salvation (imho).\"  \r\n\r\nWhile I want to respect your opinion and the journey that has taken you to it, I do not think this opinion can be reconciled with the Bible, the message of the Gospel, history or the message of Jesus.\r\n\r\nFirst, the Bible is consistent in its call to monalatry, that is the worship of God alone.  No where does the Bible suggest that worship of other gods/idols might lead to the LORD. In fact many evils and punishments are traced back to the followers of God worshiping other gods alongside the LORD or other gods instead of the LORD.\r\n\r\nSecond, salvation (whatever that means) is never promised to people who have are practicing a good faith path. Romans 1-4 appear to make it clear that all people are incapable of righteousness apart from the righteousness made available through Jesus.  Jesus himself says, in John 15, that apart from Him we can do nothing. Jesus talks about the road to destruction being wide.\r\n\r\nThird, if Jesus teachings were ultimately to set up people on a right spiritual path, why were followers of Jesus persecuted?  Numerous cults and religions that searched for the personal salvation or enlightenment of its members existed within the Roman Empire that were never persecuted.  It is my understanding that early followers of Jesus took the Lordship of Jesus Christ and refused to participate in the cult of the emperor (and other religions/cults) and saw Jesus as their only true Lord and master. This is why the Roman Empire persecuted them.  If Jesus was just a good moral example to follow, or even a God who had no problem if you worshiped in other religions because some of them might lead to Him, why would anyone persecute people like that?\r\n\r\nI guess at the end of the day I feel that to hold your opinions you would have to disregard much of what the Bible says and much of what Jesus Himself taught. \r\n\r\nI hope this does not come off as an attack in any way.  I am trying to understand your position better.\r\n\r\nYou have provided your interpretation of John 10:16 and Matthew 10:34, but I\'m curious if you could explain more of your faith journey that brought you to this point, your understanding of the verses A.J. brought up regarding Jesus name being above every other name, and clarify if you claim to be a follower of Jesus and what you think about the Bible. (This to me was unclear from your post.)'),(265,'kglethean@gmail.com',831,1325461596,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Kevin Gonzaga\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nDerek,\r\n\r\nI really appreciated your thoughts in this article.  Many of your thoughts resonated with me and many of my friends. We are all Millenials who have left the Church/Christianity/organized religion. Too much of church boils down to tweaking and chasing fads with a consumeristic mentality.  I fear that even many Emerging/Emergent churches/communities are following in the same mentality and may result in just another cosmetic layer of the same faulty foundations. I hope we can move forward and really address the root issues that have resulted from the Church leaving Jesus behind and not just keep addressing the symptoms that this departure has caused.'),(266,'kglethean@gmail.com',831,1325461596,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Kevin Gonzaga\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nDerek,\r\n\r\nI really appreciated your thoughts in this article.  Many of your thoughts resonated with me and many of my friends. We are all Millenials who have left the Church/Christianity/organized religion. Too much of church boils down to tweaking and chasing fads with a consumeristic mentality.  I fear that even many Emerging/Emergent churches/communities are following in the same mentality and may result in just another cosmetic layer of the same faulty foundations. I hope we can move forward and really address the root issues that have resulted from the Church leaving Jesus behind and not just keep addressing the symptoms that this departure has caused.'),(267,'dlpenw01@gmail.com',832,1325466230,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi drdlpenwell\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThank you, Kevin.  I\'m glad you\'re part of the conversation.'),(268,'Pwalden55@yahoo.com',833,1325469786,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Pam\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nI look forward each day for the latest post from Ray. His post are so personal but yet we all can relate to them in one way or another if we are just willing to listen to ourselves .'),(269,'rayrayc17@live.com',834,1325469787,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nYou\'re right, Michael. We trudge along in our own self-pity and sometimes God sends us a sign. Sometimes unintentional, but often powerful.'),(270,'rayrayc17@live.com',835,1325469947,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Ray Carroll\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks, Pam. That was really encouraging. Thank you for your kind feedback.'),(271,'jmcrouch@gmail.com',836,1325547218,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Crouch\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIt seems he brings up a good point that goes into all levels of life. That is the \"why\" of what is being done. I do this because? A heretic is someone who refuses to do it because \"that\'s what we do.\" The want to feel it out, test it but it into action and know that it connects and engages buyers/consumers/employees at a deep level intuitively. \r\nThis appears as a threat to the dogmatic rule minders who say, \"play it safe, be careful, what if ect.\" This is so prevalent in western Christianity. I deal with it all the time. Challenge someone\'s safe security blanket belief system and the wolfs will try to tear your head off. So I say, \"fuck it.\" Don\'t try to change anything. Do something that is a reflection of that which you are.'),(272,'jb@thriven.org',837,1325551856,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Jonathan Brink\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nJonathan, it just goes to show you how important story is to people.  A really good story resonates with people at a very deep level.  But when organizations refuse to tell a good story, they lose people\'s interest.  And when its the church, its just sad.'),(273,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',838,1325553660,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nThanks for your comment Taara. I do not see salvation as something I (or another) can earn and yet at the same time we must work/live/practice as if our actions could make a difference...and they will lead (along a path) in which salvation is possible. I personally believe the Divine is eager to save everyone and is constantly working towards this end no matter the religious path we are on.  What is your view?'),(274,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',839,1325553915,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nTaara, I also wanted to share this quote I recently read (which studying in the Bible on forgiveness) “It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’” (Luke 24:47) . To me it relates to the conversation.'),(275,'bronwen.henry@newchurch.org',840,1325554865,'Thank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine','Hi Bronwen\r\n\r\nThank you for your comment at Provoketive Magazine (http://provoketive.com). We’re creating a space of rich conversation about life, faith, justice and culture without judgment. Our desire is to provoke the reader’s imagination through conversation and open up spaces of dialogue, learning, and hope.  We want to invite you to come back soon and continue to participate in the conversation. \r\n\r\nThank you,\r\nJonathan Brink\r\nProvoketive Magazine\r\n\r\nYou posted the following comment:\r\n---------------------------------\r\nKevin,\r\nThank you for your thoughtful responses. I love the humility of this journey of posting to a blog (this if my first time post for me :P ), I am learning so much through people comments and questions...about other viewpoints and helping me to clarify and articulate my own...so thanks for kindly engaging in the conversation with me!\r\n\r\nThanks for reminding me of the \'god\' power contests in the Old Testaments. I think that it is important that \'God\' overthrows the false gods we have in our lives. The god of selfishness, of needing to look good, of needing to be right, of needing to be wealthier. I am NOT EVEN REMOTELY (did that add enough emphasis? I want to be sure!) an old testament scholar, but I wonder if the \'gods\' that were being overthrown were symbols of gods of selfishness etc.? I think if there is goodness in a religion that God is there working through it, trying to turn us away from the false gods of love of self/dominion etc. [This does raise the important question of HOW can one know if there is goodness in a religion.]\r\n\r\nI have recently come to the conclusion that my biblical knowledge/understanding has expired. So, even though I\'ve been familiar with the Bible for my whole life, I feel I am exploring it a new for the first time. I deeply want to know and follow the way of Jesus and I have many questions, doubts, and uncertainties. And I think God can handle these.'),